I would like to know if your methods or ethics with dog training would change under the following circumstances to get the dog trained...
- If you are training a dog for someone else.
- If you have a time limit of a few weeks to fully train a dog.
- If you are training a dog with no motivation or drive that can be worked with to a level that could be used for training.
Inspired by this question;
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4 Tips To Be Succesful In Dog Training Biting
Recommended Answer:You know Jen...this is one of my pet peeves in the dog world and training...people that have little to no knowledge that talk. Where did your headline come from..how was it inspired? I am not accusing you of making this up, but, here is the deal...
Dog training is NOT variable, there is only ONE way to train dogs, the ONLY thing that varies is the amount of corrections and their intensity, period.
Dog training is about repetition and consistency, doing it over and over and creating a habit along with rewards and corrections.
Do you know why we have all this BS you hear today about all these different methods of training?
I will tell you because I have been around long enough to experience it...ready...Its because we have pathetic excuses for dogs anymore, dogs that should never have been bred, allowed to live or train for anything. See, because of the pussyfication of these dogs, we HAD to create newer, gentler crap training methods that would fit these dogs temperaments, even though these dogs are not worth the chow they eat.
Example...in Holland, the KNPV has existed for 100 years, it is the main sport in which they train their dogs in. If you want to compete in that sport, you have to have a dog that can do it, all of it, the entire program. They will NOT modify a program that is 100 years old to accommodate your dog and they should not.
Same thing in Belgium, NVBK is it and your dog better have what it takes to participate in the world's hardest training program or you are out, they wont change it around to fit your dog.
My ethics remain the same today as they were 31 years a go, I am still a believer of real training that works. Yes, I do get to choose the dogs I invest my time in, yes, I also get to modify my corrections according to each dog's temperament, but, I refuse to work with dogs of questionable or non existent drives and temperaments.
If I am training a dog for someone else, I don't have 4 years to teach basic OB, I have a TIGHT schedule to adhere to, contracts signed that spell out VERY specifically when the dog will be operational. If I refuse to do that, if I claim that I need 6 months to train a dog in something they know will take 6 weeks because I want to train the dog in any particular way, I will lose the contract and the money and they will go somewhere else to get it done...that's not going to happen.
I have 8 weeks to turn out a detection dogs and 8-10 weeks to turn out a patrol dog that may be cross trained, period. If I did my work right in selecting that dog, it WILL finish training in that frame of time, if not, I am screwed.
I will not bother spending the time of day, not even a minute, on a dog that does not have the drives needed in the first place. Genetics always play the biggest role in selection of a proper dog for a particular job, no matter what anyone says.
The bottom line here is that if dogs were STILL being bred how the were 50 years a go, if we did not spend all this energy trying to save every mutt born and all that nonsense, if we instead focused on reversing this down fall of our breeds and concentrate on bringing back what is left of these breeds, we would not need to sit here and discuss different training methods and being all PC and nice nice, we would be out there training instead. Hope I helped and I am SURE there will be additions coming...
ADD: Ahh, yes, the HUGE range of opinions people have...of course...I see it now...yep, I got it...but, you know what I think about opinions..so, there is an expression that my redneck friends use down here when we hang out that I find very appropriate in cases like this...It says, "when the tail gate drops, the BS stops"...they are talking about their hunting dogs...ponder that for a while, then we talk again!!
The Shocking Truth About Electronic Dog Training Collars
- - If you are training a dog for someone else.
My method will be to achieve a well trained dog by any means this is explained to the person and if they don't like it let them find someone that will cater to them and not the dog.
- If you have a time limit of a few weeks to fully train a dog.
Contrary to Cesar's methods dogs cannot be trained in a set amount of time, that depends on the dog.
- If you are training a dog with no motivation or drive that can be worked with to a level that could be used for training
HUH- Not sure what you mean, are you talking motivation in the dog or trainer? You train a dog in a method that compliments the personality/drive of that dog.
- Training a dog for someone else:
The way I train depends on what is most effective with the dog in question.
So to me, it really doesn't matter *who's* dog it is. It matters what type of learner the dog is.
Time Limit:
This may effect the way I train as I would assume the sessions would become more frequent and more strenuous.
No Motivation:
I would try to find what, if anything, provides the most motivation for the dog and work from there. Be it treats, toys, corrections, or anything in between.I personally don't believe that there is a "one size fits all" training method. My beagle responded extremely well to clicker training when all else failed. But my Border Collie responds better to just about everything else I have tried.
- Different methods work for different people...lots of trainers believe the way they train is the only way but who cares? I believe you need to do what works best for that specific dog and if it works for you why change it? Ive never used a prong or a choke, never felt the need yet, even with large breed dogs but if it works for someone else (as an aid, not a permanent solution) then so be it.
ADD: I agree with Greek to a certain extent as well. Unfortunatley half the people in the real world cant handle a badly bred mutt so we'd be screwed if everyone had dogs bred to what they should be doing....thats why well bred Huskies, BC's, etc end up in shelters. the average pet owner doesnt have a clue about how to keep a real working dog happy. So I work with what I have and what I have is pet owners who want a well behaved dog. i do my best to provide that and to make sure that they realize that its more their job then the dogs. Cant save every dog or owner but you have to be realistic about what dogs are used for the majority of the time now.
For someone else...same way Id work with my own dogs...whatever method they respond to best.
Time limit....same just intensified, the dog will tell you when its too much.
Motivation...all dogs have a motivation, you just have to find it...my BC would never work for treats, they just dont interest her, she want praise and thats all. Some dogs will do anything for a treat...again, varies by dog.
- Greek gave a pretty thorough answer...
I will just answer your questions directly based on my own personal preference I suppose.
- If you are training a dog for someone else. - this wouldn't apply to me because I would never train someone else's dog for them. I am no dog trainer.
- If you have a time limit of a few weeks to fully train a dog - there shouldn't really be a time limit on training dogs. Well, I mean there shouldn't be an excessive amount of time to train a dog, but I wouldn't say "3 weeks this dog better be trained". For instance my trainer in his OB programs, after an assessment he will decide if the dog should do 6 or 8 weeks. In Advanced OB you automatically do 8 weeks. I never have thought I needed any more time with him than that to be honest.
- If you are training a dog with no motivation or drive that can be worked with to a level that could be used for training - can't any dog be trained?? To what degree with differ depending on the dog's motiviation and drive sure, but in my opinion, EVERY dog should be able to be trained in Basic OB.
Every trainer has their own method. In my opinion, every GREAT trainer comes from the same background. Maybe they have tweaked their methods to an extent - but it should all be stemming from the same place.
My trainer works with compulsion and corrections BUT he still uses treats when we are trying to get the dog to use his brain a little faster. Like a sit, stay, come and then the dog has to be right at your fit and drop into a sit - they work better for that with some positive motivation.
The technique may differ depending on the dog as to how much complusion the dog needs (mine is stubborn and smart) and different tools for correcting.
Sometimes when I try to explain this kind of stuff, it makes more sense in my head but comes out differently lol...hope that made sense.
- I don't personally train other people's dogs. I train my own, but have a good knowledge of how it works sending a dog out for herding training, as I've considered doing this at some point with my own dogs.
Based on these people that take in dogs for herding training, I don't see any difference in how they handle client dogs over their own. Training methods are the same across the board. Either the dog can do it, or it can't and the trainer will tell the client this if need be so as not to waste their money on training a dog that just won't cut it in the long haul.
I have seen Border Collies, with no real talent for herding (they all have instinct, they don't all have real talent to be successful), trained to do the lower levels of AKC. Typically, these trainers are pattern training for something like A course. If a dog has enough obedience for the handler, then said handler can muddle their way through a title with this dog. Mind you that the top notch USBCHA trainers don't waste their time with these dogs. They know the dog is a fail for real work and they generally don't take your money just because they can, but there are trainers out there who will indeed do this.
- It's hard for me to answer these training questions given my level of experience and my goals are so much different from everyone else's. But I want to participate. So.
- The way I would train would be the way I would train, no matter whose dog it was.
- Oddly enough this one is hard to answer. I've never been in control of how long a foster dog was with me. I' ve had dogs with me for 2 days and some for months. Sometimes the most I could do was get them to stop jumping on people and stop counter surfing. :) It's never been expected of me to fully train any dog.
- My last dog was like that. My own dog that I adopted. The Lab/Shar Pei mix. (His nick name was "Sharpie." Add to his lack of motivation his extreme shyness and aloofness. Then on top of that constant illness that required vigilant home care. I learned a lot from him about veering from a one track training method. With him I ended up abandoning "training" altogether and went to what I guess would be called conditioning. First off, I established a strict routine. The exact same thing happened at the same exact time day in and day out, no matter the weather, the only exception being illness. And, wow, it was very difficult to do but I was militaristic about it. Around the routine I built little rituals, there was an order of things happening surrounding feeding time, play time, walks, bathroom breaks, everything that happened in his day to day had a ritual around it. This made a difference. He was a completely different dog after a week or two of this. After wasting so many months trying to "train" him, when I dropped training altogether and took a totally different approach to him, I saw real progress. Then training came a bit easier and he did learn quite a bit. Then he died and I'm sad, because I would have liked to have continued. He was a joyful challenge. (I'm sad for other reasons, too, but that's another post.)
