Especially for the all positive crowd, do you think that EVERY single dog can be trained w/o some sort of a physical correction?
I met a lady for lunch who claims to be a "certified dog trainer"....she stated that she will NOT use anything but positive reinforcement when training other people's dogs. That statement completely turned me off against using her as a trainer....shouldnt you at least acknowledge that other methods exist and that they might be necessary for certain situations/dogs?
LEGIT: Will everyone hug a bunny this Sunday? :)
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I'm with you.
There is no ONE way to train every dog.
I've never been a fan of 100% positive reinforcement training, BUT I acknowledge it DOES work on some dogs. For example, I have a now 15 year old German Shorthair Pointer. Before I got her, someone had beat the crap out of her. She was about 2 years old, but only 30lbs. She is now old and kind of frail and still weighs 62lbs. She cowered at quick movements, yelped if someone had a broom, and hid in the bedroom if a man she didn't know came over. For training, she required much more of a positive approach than I was used to using....BUT I had to adapt for the dog. so she ended up getting some kind of mixture, but it worked.
LEGIT: Stupid bunny means I need to go shopping for basket fillers for the kids. I still have Halloween candy in my house. Boo.
Are You Selecting the Right Dog Training Treat For Your Dog?
- You use the tool, any tool you have to in order to accomplish your goal, that is your job as a trainer.
Refusal to use anything it takes means that you are not yourself secure in your training abilities and/or you have emotional issues.
Personally, I dont have several years to train a dog, I dont have the temperament needed to sit and wait and play games and pretend the dog is "thinking" as its cycling through its tricks trying to get that food from my hand.
So, be it a plain choker, a prong, an E collar or an atomic bomb, whatever it takes to get the dog to learn, so be it.
Nope, no hugging bunnies...I am not religious!! - I am a certified dog trainer and I ONLY use positive reinforcement and anybody who doesn't think that method works on every dog let me know and I will prove it wrong. There are different methods to every method. So saying they only use positive reinforcement is in itself saying I use different tools under one big category. So, before all you people call me close minded think about that and stop living in ignorance and learn a bit more you are really the close minded idiots who made your belief before educating yourself.
- Yes! I often frequent a dog nutrition forum and the majority of the members are for all positive reinforcement. They claim that using a prong collar can damage your dog's "psyche" and anyone who mentions negative reinforcement is immediately jumped on. A couple of them are trainers, but I would never consider them. They are some of most close minded people I've ever come across. The ones that train with a mixture of positive and negative are much more open minded.
Legit - Nope, not religious. I do like Peeps and bunnies, though! - Having trained horses professionally for the last 25+ years I can tell you that to be effective as a trainer one must constantly be willing to adapt to each animal.
I do not believe in the pure positive garbage. Dogs need to know there are consequences that are more severe then not getting a cookie.
The method I use to train dogs adapts to each dog, in that you would not give a Rottweiler the same type of correction you would give a Collie.
LG: My ranch is full of bunnies. My husband wanted to know why we had day bunnies and night bunnies, as he believed all bunnies were night bunnies. I tell them the union bunnies get to be out during the day, they got that in their collective bargaining agreement. - When I was actively training I used behavior modification of the individual dog. What works for one dog may not work for another. So one has to be aware of the different correctional tools for the individual dog. & yes many times you have to fall back to method training.
All corrections are leash corrections, never a hand laid on the dog. Lavish praise. What ever works for the individual dog. The only hand correction is for a redirected bite while dog is being agitated. Pent up aggression will redirect.
Basic to Advanced obedience is strictly leash corrections. - I agree with you. While I usually support positive training and attempt it first with my dogs, sometimes one has to use what works with the individual dog. That "certified dog trainer" needs to open their mind to all training methods.
LEGIT: I will not be hugging any bunnies anytime soon -laughs- they are adorable and all, but I like to look at them from a distance. Those teeth, they scare me. - I agree with you. I am not a certified trainer but I am working to be and I work with in everyday. We have 3 dobermans and every one of them gets a little different technique to go with their personality. I have one that I would dare someone to strictly use positive reinforcement. He would be a monster! Then another that is very light and docile so I do believe it depends on the dog.
- different dogs different personalities and issues yeah i agree that at some point you have to change to work with the dog.
i am for positive reinforcement but certainly understand that there are some dogs that simply won't work on.
people can whine and cry about training collars martingales, prongs and chokes until the day they die yes with some dogs it's overkill with others it is the only thing that will work. - I have been MIA the last few days...
If someone refuses to use certain methods - they are not the trainer for me.
A good trainer will have methods for each individual dog with a well-rounded "training philosophy".
Legit: I'm Catholic...so Easter will be celebrated in my family.
I would be lying if I told you if there was a bunny in my midst I wouldn't hug it LOL.
I even hug Quattro sometimes...WHAT UP NOW???? lmao - I hear ya. I'd walk away from a trainer that said that too. Then again, the kind of dogs I work with are usually large and powerful dogs, not little guys that can be easily controlled with in all situations with a buckle collar and treats. I think EVERY dog trainer should understand and know how to use all the tools available in a proper way.
- It is funny. I was originally trained to use ''Bad dog!''. As more positive methods became the norm, it is now ''Ah, ah. ah!'' and offer a chew.
- I think a good trainer should adapt for every dog they train weither it be different tool or methods. And yes I will be hugging a bunny this sunday.
- You are 100% right. No one method works for EVERY dog. I wouldn't use anyone with such a closed mind (although I would LOVE to turn her loose with my headstrong GSD and watch her suffer, lol)
- I had the opportunity this weekend to see the written guidelines for an all-positive trainer. She basically will not take any dog that has problems, especially aggression.
I actually called a trainer that does marker training when I was having so many problems with my Lab mix. I thought maybe he would have some ideas for a different approach, but I never heard back from him. I bought a marker training video, but after watching it I could see that it was not appropriate for my dog, and ended up fixing the problems myself with a prong and e-collar.
I don't doubt that there are dogs that would do well with all positive methods.....fearful dogs, for example, but you know the old adage...."one size does NOT fit all". :o)
****
Oh...missed the bunny part. Rabbits are pests, and are not welcome at my house. Especially the one that got up under my hood of my car while it was parked in the driveway and chewed through the wiring. No hugging here. :o) - I use all clicker training/positive reinforcement with my puppy, but I don't see anything wrong with physical correction with tools like prong collars. Each dog is different, and requires a different approach. My dog is very sensitive, and yelps if she is scolded or given a physical correction, but I have met MANY dogs that are way to head-strong to use JUST positive reinforcement and need discipline too. I hate choke chains, because I have seen time and time again that they don't work well, because people do not know how to use them properly. I used a prong collar for a couple of weeks on Luna, but it just wasn't the right tool for HER. She would walk perfectly with it on, and never pull, but the second that we took it off, she would pull very hard, so I'm working on her to walk well on a leash using just clicker training. It is a VERY slow process, but I think in the end, it will last longer. Lol, I don't trust anyone who says they are a "certified dog trainer"! A certificate doesn't mean they are a good dog trainer! A dog trainer comes from experience and knowledge, not a piece of paper :)
I will make sure to go to the pet store on Sunday and hug a bunny :D - My opinions -
Absolutely we should consider different tools. If one doesn't work after really, properly trying it, of course, try something that will work. And learn how to use the tools right, and give it a fighting chance.
Especially for the all positive crowd .... Are there any all positive trainers even here on DS?
But to your point, if we agree that different tools should be tried, would that include all positive as a tool? Or is that a method?
All I know is that I wouldn't have the patience to do all positive. Dogs speak dog .. and dogs aren't purely positive, they correct each other all the time, it works for them, so it really doesn't make sense to me. Bunnies ... yum. The back legs are meatiest. - I use positive methods but I'm not a purely positive trainer. Never have been, never will be. I use any method or any tool that will work for me.
I love arguing with people like these. I can usually get them to slink off with their little tails between their legs. My questions usually have something to do with consequences which are corrections. It goes something like this:
ME so you're a positive trainer
IDIOT yes I have a degree in so and so dog academy.
ME so you use no corrections?
IDIOT no corrections are cruel
ME so you don't use a collar pull
IDIOT no
ME the verbal correction no?
IDIOT no
ME do you use positioning?
IDIOT no
ME do you use blocking and behavior
IDIOT what do you mean?
ME lets say you catch your dog stealing food from the counter. What do you do?
IDIOT I remove his feet from the counter and tell him to get off.
ME isn't that a correction by positioning as well as a verbal correction?
IDIOT ummmm a a a ummmmmm
ME how do you keep the dog from getting on the counter again?
IDIOT I pull him back when he tries to get on the counter again
ME isn't that a collar pull correction?
IDIOT ummmm a a a ?
IDIOT I prevent him from jumping on the counter by getting in his way yeah yeah that's how I do it
ME Isn't that blocking which is also a correction?
By the time I'm done with these people I have their heads spinning. It gets even better when I start adding negative punishment, negative reinforcement, counter conditioning, redirection, rate of reinforcement, etc. I can baffle them with BS everytime they try and get me. Yes I love talking to idiots.
As far as bunnies: They look mighty good on my plate lightly breaded and next to the mashed potatoes and corn. - Well I used to use the old methods and I do acknowledge that they exist and that probably 95% of all the dog trainers and owners use these methods still, so I know all about them. With that said about 5 years ago I started or better yet saw the light and learnt about positive reinforcement type training and I know it works. I try to always come up with a better way a positive way and for the most part I would consider myself a positive dog trainer now. I am not perfect but I know being positive works 100% better. I wish I could show you I wish you could see what I have done with dogs using positive methods if you could I really think you would start believing also.
Look I see dogs that have issues all the time and the reason these dogs are out there is the owners just didn't train them when the problems started or they used force based training and really messed the dogs up. So can positive reinforcement work with these dogs well to be honest some dogs are to badly ruined and no methods will work. These are the dogs that get euthanized over and over sad that no one will show the link between how they where raised and trained.
So your question is do I think it is imperative? No I don't 5 years ago I would of said yes but now No! Positive training methods are better all day long I saw the science behind it and I am learning free shaping and positive reinforcement you should too.
Sorry no hugging this weekend I have better plans.You say the trainer was closed minded well if she just started last week then maybe but do you think it is possible that she now knows a better way and couldn't be bothered with going back in time and methods? The old methods and the positive methods don't really work well together at all. Look if you wont buy into the positive training methods thats too bad, I still say you should of given them a good old college try I have never seen a dog get worse because of positive reinforcement. - I hate the term "all positive" but I will agree that I won't use an e-collar, prong collar, etc in training ANY dog. Although the need for this may occur in a very small handful of cases, it is such a tiny fraction that I won't have the expertise to use it, and would refer to someone who does, for that particular issue, once I have established that it was truly necessary and done other essential training with the dog. I basically follow Bob Bailey's guidelines for the use of punishment
The article is thought provoking, and comes from a lot of experience training a wide variety of animals (including dogs) for commercial and government purposes where reliability was extremely important, and can be read here:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles…
I have excerpted a paragraph that gives a general summary:
My personal view is that virtually all animal training would profit from the use of positive reinforcement. There are a very few circumstances in animal training where the addition of punishment is, in my opinion, extremely worthwhile, and possibly essential. There are a few more situations where adding punishment would likely be very useful. In those rare circumstances where punishment offers potential benefit, it is always to stop some behavior that could cause harm to the animal, a human, or damage or destroy property. In my opinion, and just as examples, this would exclude the use of positive punishment in the training of sport or obedience training and severely restrict punishment in the training of service dogs.
Back to me:
In short, if I am going to use positive punishment (the application of an aversive) I am going to do it in such a way that it is not associated with me or my presence, and is only necessary a scant handful of times. Properly timed and applied punishment should only need to be done 1-5 times to eliminate the behavior. If I am having to do it more, I should be looking at what else is going on. In many cases, positive reinforcement is coming from the environment, rather than from the trainer, and that needs to be reversed.
The caveat with training without using physical corrections is that it does take a different mind set, and a different skill set. It is not simply doing the same thing you did when you trained with corrections, and then not correcting, and many people don't recognize this fact.
I hear the comment, a lot, about considering the necessity for different dogs and different situations, but somehow, what the dog needs generally is less important in the decision than what the trainer is used to using and comfortable with. A trainer who has used an e-collar successfully tends to use it again (hey, positive reinforcement works on humans, too!) on every dog- do all of the dogs NEED it? I don't doubt its efficacy, just its necessity. I've seen trainers put an e-collar on a dog on its second agility lesson because the dog wandered over to see the other owner (husband was training the dog, wife was watching outside of a fence.) The trainer was a seasoned K9 cop (but complete newbie about agility, he didn't have a clue!) and because of his status and experience, the husband allowed him to do this. I'm sure the cop had a lot of experience using the e-collar, but was it necessary? No, there was a lot of other training that needed to happen, that the cop did not understand, so he fell back on what he knew.
I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that physically aversive technniques exist, and that they can work, just not that they are necessary 99.99% of the time, IF APPROPRIATE OTHER TRAINING IS GOING ON. I do, however, use other techniques, such as negative punishment, extinction, the use of body blocks and space management, and strong management, in addition to positive reinforcement. I'm a huge proponent of teaching dogs Zen (a la Sue Ailsby) as written up here:
http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20dogs/le… also known as Its Yer Choice (Susan Garrett)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaX…
Please keep in mind that the end behavior isn't a dog who just stays off food, or a toy, but a dog who has learned that the best way to get things is to exhibit self control in all situations.Add: Not all trainers of any kind want to deal with aggression, and I do know quite a few positive reinforcement trainers who either specialize in it, or who include it in their case mix. Funny how people start saying the dog wasn't really aggressive if he responds to +R, even when the dog got worse with more aversive methods... A good read is Pam Dennison's "Bringing Light to Shadow" about working with an aggressive dog.I'm working all weekend, no bunnies for me! And I doubt most bunnies like to be squeezed...
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