Dog Training Help
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I am not a method trainer advocate - but I confess to being comfortable with certain methods.
In other words, there is no ONE method or tool for every dog and every handler . With my breed I have found prong collars work best, and after years of training and working them, I believe I have a pretty good idea of their limitations - and effectiveness.
Of all tools listed - I've yet to use an e-collar. Will I? I doubt it. Outside of the ethics of using electrocution as a means of punishment, is the fact animals are electrical beings, not just carbon molecules with fur - and it cannot be healthy for a dog to routinely have to contend with EMF.
Having said all that, there is degrees of harm, and I would rather see a large breed dog fitted with an e-collar and properly trained by a competent pro - than have the dog euthanized.
What frustrates is the knowledge that many people use these collars as a short-cut to actually working and exercising the dog. And the collar is worn daily - and this (in my opinion) is harmful to the dog.
Same for bark collars - I have not used and doubt I will.
I also have no use for citronella or other "distraction" type tools. I do not ever want to introduce punishment that I cannot touch and feel.
I'm not a fan of Halti's - and recently saw an old women walking a Golden wearing one - the dog was clearly unhappy and spent most of the time scratching and pawing it. A prong collar properly used would leave handler and dog much happier. But, I am pretty sure the old lady would not consider it, and in the big picture, its better than having the dog at home alone or in a cage all day.
The last comment I will make is: skill. A novice handler is not as well coordinated as a pro, and may lack the strength and coordination to execute a proper choke correction. The tool is only effective if the owner can use it as designed, and not all people are equal.
If i see a dog happy walking with a harness and causing me no grief, I'm happy. If I see a handler with a well trained dog using a clicker and that dog behaves around me and my dog - I'm happy.
When I see poorly trained dogs walking on flat collars, halters, or harnesses that target, and torment me and my dogs - and I'm forced to manage both my dog and theirs, - I'm pissed off.
When I see an owner brutally correct their dog in anger using a prong, choker or e-collar - I am enraged and will make my view public. No tool can be used in anger effectively or humanely.
Its a balance.
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@AnneB. Some years ago I saw a man on the street defeating his dog in anger and I told him to stop, or be prepared for battle. Having a bigger dog - he stopped :-)
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Had to edit my post ...I talk too much!
@Curtis. You are correct - I do not understand the desire to routinely administer pain to a dog simply to win a ribbon. Suggesting the breed is in peril if the dog does not sit perfectly straight or at supersonic speed during a 3 minute circus routine that you yourself admit is not practical, is arrogant, and we both know this pedantic requirement is simply for show, and contributes nothing to determining function and purpose. Its the human ego that is being served, not the dog. if you insist on doing it - at least be honest. You routinely decry other methods of training because they don't measure up to some arcane standard. Unwashed masses with $300 dogs - another prejudice without basis in fact. Curtis...wins....flawless victory. Your mantra. Not mine.
A dog with a title is a dog without a day job - work the dog in the field as it was meant to be, and the rest takes care of itself.
Good luck with your dog.
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Euphemisms like "stemming" are comfy. Its better to deal with facts. You wanted research on the long term effect of shock collars: attached links;
https://www.4pawsu.com/IAABC_Ecollar.pdf
High-level electric shock (HLES) causes a neurological response and a perception of pain, and activates muscular and skin-burning sensations even if there is no physically burned flesh and although no physical damage has actually occurred. The study specifically stated that the sensation of burning was perceived even when there was no actual physical injury (Sang et.al., 2003). ...
Heres' another one
http://www.trainingbothendsoftheleash.co…
Suggesting a shock collar is equivalent to physiotherapy is really about as shallow as this pond can get. Thanks for the chuckle. But I give you A+ for creative writing and you can add 3 points to your YA total. :-)
I wont bother to ask for your sources - citing Dr. No from James Bond doesn`t count.
Cheers
Want to Learn How to Train a Dog? Simple But Important Dog Training Techniques
- There are several good tools for training a dog. I, personally, don't believe any of the aversive devices are necessary and feel the reward system is better. I had a 120 lb wolf for 13 years who was extremely strong. I was able to train him so that he was under total voice and hand signal control. I didn't even have to have him on a leash to control him, let alone use aversives like shock or prong collars. If you are patient and willing to work with an animal, you will get good results.
- Whatever way with whatever tool works best for a dog & the trainer/owner is the best.
For example, you may need to use a Prong on a dog who feels the need to pull you down the street, but for a dog who is less intense about this you may just need to use the right collar/lead & make sure it is fitted properly & of course I think commands are used in or should be used in every method or as some prefer, the "clicker"...which I will never use, but I'm not going to trash talk those who do. - Im not above using e-collars or prongs. Once in a great while i'll use them. I use choke collars for the most part - if I'm going to use a training collar. Tbh I've never used a head collar.I don't think they're band-aids I've just never got around to trying them yet.
I try first with a regular collar and adjust as necessary. If it's loose leash walking i can usually get results with a regular one. - I think many different methods could work. It depends on what each dog responds too.
I don't like devices that cause pain such as shock and prong collars, but if they are the last resort and will only be used short term and the person using them knows how to use them properly I guess can live with it - if no other methods have worked and the dog is facing death if not got under control.
http://kb.rspca.org.au/Should-I-use-an-a…
http://kb.rspca.org.au/RSPCA-Policy-A07-… - There are many training meathods and 'tools' but you are not talking about tools you are talking about gadgets and you don't need them...................a well fitting flat collar and a training lead...sometimes a harness used together with a collar ........................................…
- Well in my opinion ..... I think everyone has a different way of doing things. Some things work for one individual, to another they don't. But some items/tools do work more often then other.
- Any humane method or tool that gets the job done is perfectly OK. You'll find that different dogs respond better to different methods...whatever WORKS is the best.
- Train your dog without pulling on a collar, harness, or halter: Use a clicker! It's the BEST.
- i think every dog is different ... what worked for my first dog was not as effective with my second dog ... i am not opposed to training tools as long as they are used appropriately and with some knowledge ... i used to be against e-collars as i thought they were cruel until i saw a dog trained with no stress using one ... i thought halti's were ridiculous until i had to walk a 60 pound puppy out of control and the halti had the dog walking nice within a week ... citronella no-bark collars, again i would have thought that to be cruel but when i was about to lose my apartment, i strapped one of those collars to my dog and in a week she was not barking, she was not traumatized, she was just no longer a barker ... for me i think i have just learned as i went along ... and i don't care how anyone else wants to train their dog, not my issue at all ... the only training that bugs me are people who use too much voice ... the dog does not speak english so repeating the command over and over just drives me crazy ... i was doing a video of my dog's frisbee skills and in the background for 20 minutes there is some fool dog owner calling their dogs name ad nauseum ... if he doesn't come the first time, just go and get the thing ..
- If you're a pet dog owner the only tools you'll ever need are a clicker (optional) food, a tug toy or ball on a rope (if your dog has prey drive), a choke or prong collar (whichever suits your dogs hardness best) a flat collar, a 6 foot lead, a long line, and if needed with off leash and avoidance training issues, a remote trainer.
Everything else has no use for a pet dog owner. Head collars are completely useless and nobody who is even semi-competent as a trainer uses them. Harnesses are for protection work, tracking, and pulling carts and sleds, not for walking dogs...even sled dog owners know this. Spray collars that use citronella are ridiculous and honestly I would rather use the e-collar than spray noxious chemicals into my dogs eyes and nose especially when their long term effects are unknown and e-collars are 100% safe as per their proper use. And if I left any gimmick products out? They weren't even worth mentioning!
Chix: You clearly don't understand training of GSDs...competition heeling is only used on the Schutzhund/Obedience field...you use a different command for heel when simply walking down the street where the dog isn't expected to focus on you thus not having to crane his neck on real walks. If you don't correct your dog for not sittting perfectly straight you're on a slippery slope...first it's not sitting straight, then it's sitting really slow, then it's stooping down but never actually touching his butt to the ground. May not be a big deal to somebody with a $300 GSD out of the Sunday paper but for people who breed and work their dogs for the furthering development for good stock and for a healthy minded working dog, it does matter...because details are everything and such dogs are often in competition to prove their worth as breeding stock, their handler as a trainer, and for exercise, both physical and mental.
And lastly the e-collar stim is electrocution? That would be like saying a shock from a door knob is electrocution. And lastly...your "guesstimates" are not science. And if you want to play scientist, rule #1 is research...you would have come across studies showing electrical shock has NO long term or lasting effects on muscle tissue within 10 short minutes of research. If you were to be defibrillated every day but your heart rythm corrected after, your heart would suffer no damage what so ever even after years. Same thing with your skeletal muscles...hence why people use electrodes to work muscle and help patients with atrophy of their extremities...also why people can safely wear electrodes on their spine to help with pains and electrical issues in their central nervous system. - I use a harness for one dog and one dog only because, without any particular training, he pulls on it less. I'll admit it, I'm lazy, and the less training I have to do the better. Why solve a problem that is already fixed, eh? But yeah, he likes the harness better, so I use it. Simple as that.
My other dogs tug and pull on the harness just as bad as the collar. When I got my foster dog, I got a collar for all my fosters (this one and those of the future) that is just amazing. She told me the name of it, and I'm pretty sure it involves the name of some guy. All I know is that they cost a pretty penny, they are just flat collars.... ope, found it. They are called Martingale collars. Love 'em. My foster, even though he had not a single scrap of training before he came to us, walks better on a leash than both of my dogs, and I didn't even have to train him. I definitely have to try and get me a couple of those for my guys. - Ditto, Chix!
I guess I have never had a dog who needed anything other than a flat collar or a Martingale. Or maybe I have enough patience and time to spend with my dogs to train them without the use of anything else.
Who knows what I would use if I came across a dog who did not respond to the methods I use now? I certainly would not leave the dog untrained-I wouldn't tolerate that.
I understand the use of all of those tools, don't really care for some of them, like the Halti, but think that there are legion of people out there who have no idea how to use them and either end up ruining their dogs, or using the "tool" as a crutch for the rest of the dog's life.
Just look how many people are out there with prongs on their dogs. When you ask them about it, they always say that their dogs won't walk nicely without one. That right there is an indication that they are clueless on how to use it as a training tool, or too lazy to graduate the dog to a flat collar. So the poor dogs are condemned to life in a control device. That is what is "wrong". Not the tools.
@Chix-
I am reminded of a scenario that happened a few months ago. A man came in with his adolescent GSD, a girl, walking her so tight that her front paws barely touched the ground. He was using an ill-fitting prong, and randomly yanking her off the floor if she just moved one inch in front of him. The dog tried to lunge at a few other dogs, and received an over the top correction, every time.
I politely asked him to tone it down in the store, as we had children and families in there, and he dragged her to the register. He told her to sit, and as she was complying with the command, I guess it wasn't fast enough for him, so he yanked her front paws off the ground again, then kicked her. She immediately yelped and urinated.
I think I may have embarrassed him, because I have not seen him since. I can only hope his dog is still alive.
And people wonder why they get so much flack for suggesting prongs to the average dog owner. Many idiots in the world and very few real dog trainers.
All training tools need instruction before use. Once the dog is ruined, there is no more opportunity, and it becomes difficult to train. - Personally, I train the puppies I foster and all of my previous dogs the same. I take them into my fenced back yard, have them sit beside my leg, and practice walking beside my leg with a treat in my hand. The first several times, I give them a treat after five steps walking beside me. Then, the treat takes more and more steps to get the treat. When starting them on the leash outside of the yard, I do take a clicker to keep them on track whenever I see their attention wandering or them beginning to pull away from me or lag behind. For walks, I do use a harness with them having a collar at all times. Since the clicker does annoy me but works, I don't take it with me after five times of not having to use it; however, I start to say their name along with the click after a few walks with few clicks. I also walk each puppy with one of my regular dogs who know how to walk without any commands on the other side. The puppy will follow the lead of the bigger dog.
I have never used a choke collar much less anything other than a clicker, treats, regular collar, and leash and have been successful for years doing this. My dogs are also trained for running beside me on a bike with no leash. I do have a leash for when we get to the local store or if we have to stop somewhere. Few people actually know that they don't have a leash, because they run right beside me never outpace or anything like this.
Add on: I want to stipulate that most of the puppies that I train are adopted to others. So, I do not want them afraid of me, because I used something that would hurt them while I was teaching them. Simply put, most of the dogs, puppies included, that I foster have been hurt repeatedly by humans. There is no way I'd get anywhere in their training if I did anything that would hurt them!
If you're dog is a pet not show dog, then you should want them to love you not be afraid of you. I've even gotten foster dogs that were "trained" with these hurtful devices with their owner dropping them off and saying this dog is untrainable! Let me put an electric collar on you and see how you feel or let me pinch the snot out of you whenever you don't sit fast enough, walk correctly, etc. and see how you feel. Personally, I think kindness does better, and I've actually gotten between a guy and his dog when he was whipping the poor dog. I could see blood around the collar, too, which was the main reason for it. He tried saying that if she didn't pull on her chain at home and chain at home then she'd be fine. She had on a choke collar, btw, and obviously it never came off. I can't stand anyone who would willingly draw an animal's blood.
As far as someone saying that about harnesses only being used to pull sleds or work, I've chosen to use them when walking and hiking, because I do live in Alaska and several will be used for this type of work or even skijoring which requires a harness rather than a collar. When hiking up hills and mountain slopes, harnesses are best when the dog might help pull the walker, too. But the dog doesn't wear them all of the time either only when working or on a walk/hike.
I've had german shepherds and big mixes for most of my life along with medium and small dogs. None of them have ever tried to over power me. I was 9 years old walking my german shepherd or having him run beside my bike, and he never ventured away from my side but once. A car with 3 men stopped to ask for directions, and he only got between us to let them know that I was not approachable. He was trained as simple as that and listened or watched for my body clues. If a child can walk a huge dog without trouble, then there is no reason why someone should have trouble if the dog is well trained. - In my opinion, I don't enjoy clickers. You can use clickers if you want, but I personally enjoy the old school way of training dogs!
There's any way you can train a dog. I would suggest harnesses since they're not as painful as other collars. In addition to that, I prefer using healthy treats while training a dog (really small treats). After that, all you need is positive feedback. - I use a face harness, and it is a very safe device.
They cannot hurt their throats, and are not hurt.
Some dogs do well with choke collars, but they
are almost always used incorrectly. They didn\t
work on my last dog, as his head was so thin,
the collar would just fall off in the slack position.
I personally am against anything that intentionally
causes pain. I think there are better ways to
get a dog trained.
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