I have made the statement on several occasion that the average pet owner is not capable of doing their own protection training in a dog, and I have gotten upset more than a few times when I see people come on and ask such questions as "How do I make my dog kill on command?" or "How do I make my Pit Bull's head bigger so he looks meaner?" or "What is the best book to buy so I can train my dog to be mean?"
Maybe I am wrong. I believe there are people who are capable of training their dogs but I also believe they need assistance and for something as important as personal protection, they most certainly need someone who is well trained in the art.
However, I will be the first to admit, though I have watched others train, and I have even assisted at times, this is not my forte. So, I would like input from you guys on the idea that anyone can train a dog for personal protection, and also, should personal protection training be promoted in the average canine?
Most of you know I am working on some rescue issues with my county right now and writing several proposals. One of the reasons I am asking this is because we have always tried to put stipulations in our proposals with the county that deals specifically with laws associated with dog training. For example: we have a stipulation right now that states anyone who deliberately trains a domesticated dog that is a family pet to attack will be fined and the dog confiscated. It is not worded exactly like that, but I think you guys get the idea.
Thanks in advance for your discussions on this.
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Huh. The 'average' pet owner barely knows which end of the leash to use if they use one at all.
No. No one but a professional licensed in this field. Period. No arguments, no exceptions.
What I am starting to find disturbing is the videos you can access. Many of them are 'home made' and the so called 'trainer' hasn't a clue in hell what he(she) is doing. People look at them and think
"Well, I can do that!" Even with the videos that are obviously done by professionals it is still disturbing.
People are wanting dogs to 'protect' them. To 'protect' their home. Protect their children.
It is not the animal's job to protect. It is our job as the owners of these dogs to protect them, our home and children.
Unfortunately, I do believe Launi is very capable of coming to my assistance if she felt I was being threatened. It is unfortunate because she would be in my line of fire.
And I am very sorry to tell everyone this but a PP dog, no matter how deadly, is no match for a firearm.
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- I don't think an average Joe can train a dog for protection. They would more than likely go about it the wrong way.
I think an average Joe can train a dog for protection if they had a trainer, someone who is experienced in this art. - I agree 100 %. I think an unqualified person training any dog for personal protection is about the same as someone that knows NOTHING about guns carrying one that could misfire at any time!!
- unfortunately to many.
- I agree wholeheartedly with you...it is obvious from the questions on YA that most people cannot teach their dogs to pee outside. With that, I feel it is safe to assume the average Joe cannot properly train his own personal protection dog. I could elaborate so much further but I feel most folks here have said it.
- A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that they can train a dog for protection. The vast majority of them have no clue whatsoever what protection training is actually like. They also are blissfully unaware that protection training requires specific temperaments and do not know how to screen for those temperaments. They are also blissfully unaware that pit bulls are more often than not ill-suited for guard and protection work, as well as many other breeds.
Legislation discouraging training family pets as guard/attack/protection dogs is a great idea. Most people who want to train this type of dog are intentionally creating a dog that is dangerous, and they are fully aware of that. They should be discouraged, they should be punished if they go through with it anyway. - Well, you know me beth, and you know that "I" certainly don't believe that anyone should train a dog. however I do believe anyone 'can' train a dog. its a complex issue, but basically, if you wish to train your dog, you 'can' but that doesn't mean you 'should'.
as far as training personal protection dogs, I disagree with your stipulation, period, no question about it. However, details for my stance are necessary to insure that you understand why I say this.
#1. I am a believer that freedom is a must, and all people have the right to train their dogs as they see fit, so long as it does not bring harm to an innocent person/people, or ANY dog/animal (with the exception of hunting game)
#2. most people would state that a family dog is the only dog for PP (personal protection) otherwise you have an attack dog, and there is a big difference between a PP dog, and and attack dog. A personal protection dog is one that has a family which it loves, and has been trained all basic commands. it can be trained to do just about anything, but the main lessons it has received are based around how to treat strangers ( they should be trained not to be aggressive, or overly friendly) in other words, they should be quiet, and reserved with strangers.
a PP dog is not taught to 'attack' he is taught to defend. some people teach their dogs to attack on command, this is both impractical, and detrimental to a dogs psyche (which is something reserved for a different time.)
#3. a person willing to put the time and effort into learning how to appropriately train their dog should have the right to do so, they should not have to spend all the time and money on books (which they should read plenty of) and lessons (how they receive these lessons is irrelevant) and then have to go through some government agency to get 'permission' to train their dogs.
also, not all breeds are good for PP, anyone smart enough to train their dog right, knows this to be fact.
I'm not saying that you are doing anything wrong, as you didn't specify exactly how it works. I am just saying that you need to be careful, creating laws is a messy business, just be sure your not taking away a persons right to their property. some people will spend years learning about how to train their dogs, and I can tell you, many of them will not/would not, ever think to ask uncle same if its "okay" to train their dog this way. - In many ways I agree with you - there are people who think that a dog attacking someone is 'protection' but do not realise the standard of obedience training that is needed to have a protection dog that is safe.
I think it is wrong to blanket all family pets with the rule of confiscation if they are trained to attack. What about people who have GSDs and attend Schutzhund training? These dogs (not just GSDs) are highly trained not only in protection but tracking and obedience (They have to pass an obedience test before they can even begin training in the three phases) This would mean that these clubs would be banned and dogs confiscated yet these dogs are probably less likely to cause problems than others that have not been trained. SchH is recognised as a test of the nerve and capabilities of the working GSD.
If you were to get a dog of 'strong' character and someone say like me, applied to adopt it and stated that I wanted to train it SchH would I be turned down because of this when the chance is that the dog would love having a job to do and have an excellent home for life.
Rules like these need serious thinking on and the wording of them so as those with a genuine reason for training a protection dog do not get their dog taken away from them. - Technically speaking, anyone COULD provided they have the knowledge, the resources, the right dog and the ability to properly handle a dog without being abusive or too soft. But how many people out there have all that? Most people don't even know how to get the right dog, let alone the knowledge and the dog handling skills. I know I could do it if I really wanted to. I know the right people to go to to help me find the right dog and develop the skills, but until I do those things then no, I can't do it.
So yes, anyone COULD but not just anyone WILL. That's the problem with saying "anyone can" is that the average person out there thinks "That means ME!" and will rush right out and do it without stopping to think that there are proper steps to take to training a personal protection dog. That's why most people end up with an aggressive mess instead of a well trained, reliable dog.
So I'm with you, I don't say anyone can do it, I say if you plan on doing it then take the proper avenues and that's where it's going to cut 99% of people out of the running because they just don't have the motivation to do it the right way. - Of the common household pet owner? I would say maybe 3% at the most - if they are trying to do it alone based on reading books, watching videos or visiting Y/A lol.
I believe if you go to someone who knows what they are doing that your likelihood of being able to train in PP goes up. But I also think there is a large percentage of those people AND their dogs that aren't cut out for PP training. Not just anyone can do it because it takes a lot of commitment, money and time - 3 things people around here have admitted to not having all that much of. Some dogs just don't have the right temperament for it either - no matter how badly the owner wants them too.
Just because your dog is a GSD, Doberman, APBT, Rottie, whatever else - doesn't mean they are automatically cut out for that kind of training. There are people that are lazy enough to show up to a couple of training sessions and then decide they can do the rest by themselves at home - that is dangerous!
There are 2 statements I live by when it comes to dogs:
1) DOGS ARE ONLY GOOD AS THEIR GENETIC GENE POOL; and
2) DOGS ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THEIR OWNERS - I personally think very few people have a need, or the ability to handle, a dog that is trained to attack on command. For most people, a dog that will bark to alert is enough. If you have to ask about how to train your dog, thats a good clue that you dont need such a dog.
NO ONE needs a dog that is "mean", or trained to be flat out aggressive.
I never understood the idea of wanting a dog's head to be "bigger" either. I dont know where people get the idea that their dogs are supposed to have oversized heads. - To make this short and simple.
I firmly believe that no one should train their dogs to be aggressive unless their is a legitimate need or the dog is trained in duty or as a service dog..ect
Many people choose their own views and opinions, even when their opinions endanger the life's of others. I agree with you completely.
Ignorance is truly bliss, and many people try to justify their wrong doings. - I do think anyone can, under some really specific situations.
1. The right dog. A thoughtfully selected, well bred dog of an appropriate breed.
2. The right trainer. I'm fortunate enough to live near a nationally respected K-9 and dog trainer school (Tom Rose School). They have a Schutzhund program that allows people to title their own dogs under the supervision and direction of their trainers. We do obedience there, and the professionalism at the school is very impressive.
3. I personally believe the individual needs to have some previous experience in traditional methods of dog training, and should have titled another dog previously in SOMEthing. I'd like to someday own a Malinois and possibly do Schutzhund. For now, since I have no experience training a dog well, I got a lab, and we're doing obedience. We're both learning.
4. Have the right home setting for a PP dog. That, to me, means not an apartment in a busy city. I live in a somewhat dangerous area, on the ground floor. My dogs would not attack an intruder, but they do alert. In the city, there are too many people, to much stimulus. I think it would be to much job for a PP dog. Thats my somewhat uninformed opinion, though.
The percentage of people who fit these criteria are slim. I don't, as much as I'd like to, so I have dogs that fit my ability and needs. - Humans have a distinct advantage over dogs in the respect that they can reason, understand and learn with a much higher rate of intelligence than any dog.
I think anyone can provided they have the right temperament, personality and dedication to do so. If they were to be taught by someone more experienced in PP training, learned under their guidance and most importantly were WILLING to learn and be taught, then i think anyone could.
The problem is finding all those characteristics in most people who do want to train their dogs for PP. How many can you say have them? Hardly any.. and that is what i believe makes the difference.
Lets face it, the average person who decides to train their dog to be a guard or 'attack' dog will confine the dog to their property, encourage the dog to bark and display aggressive behaviours towards any approaching person or animal and will generally agitate the dog into such a state that it will be seen as ''very protective'' instead of a nervous wreck.
Getting the right dog to be trained for PP is paramount and not something that can be found in the local shelter. I doubt the people who do their own 'protection training' have put much consideration into the background of the dog they purchase. They will go to a shelter or byb'r and pick out/buy the biggest, meanest and toughest dog.
I do not believe the average canine will be successful in PP even if training was attempted, i am not talking about sports, but, actual protection when push came to shove. There is a reason why those dogs are so expensive, why breeding selection is done carefully and why people invest so much time and money into them. They are not breeding for pets but for dogs that may potentially save lives one day.
Here, where owning a firearm is illegal then i definitely see a use for PP dogs. If i had a reason to question my safety then i would definitely be looking into getting one, but right now, i am happy with the social, friendly, playful, furry butted creature i have.. - Anybody can train a dog to do anything. The only limitations are time, money, the will to train and the dog's genetics. Just because you CAN doesn't always mean you SHOULD. Protection training isn't for everybody. If you're the type of person who halfway does things, or thinks they can do an "at home" job...then protection training is NOT for you.
On a side note. 90% of training is done at home...a lot of people don't put their Schutzhund dogs on a decoy until the dog is 1+ years old and do all the groundwork training themselves. Obviously if you've never trained a dog for the sport in question you have no choice but to attend classes...and they aren't cheap...I'd say about $3,500 on average for 1 year of study.
-edit- Dobiz_Rule is a perfect example of the RIGHT and ONLY way to get involved in sport. She bought herself a quality puppy because she knows that "You get what you pay for" isn't just a sound the wind makes when wise people speak, she joined a Schutzhund club, and picked a trainer who just happens to be one of the best in the World and a several x's Nats competitor. Dog training isn't rocket science, it's common sense. This isn't something you half %$# do. - Personal Protection Training for dogs...........no I don't believe that this should be even tried unless you are fully skilled at this type of training, as for training the average family pet , NO.
In the UK if any dog attacks even a burgler breaking into your house, then the dog is very likely to be PTS and the owners fined or even jailed. I do understand it is different in the US, however still think it is not safe for even professional trainers who have not had a back ground/understanding/knowledge/skills in this type of training to do it...........and certainly not the average family dog owner. - Hell no. I have many years of obedience training experience, but would no more think of trying to train a protection dog than I would think of doing major surgery on myself.
I think it takes a special kind of person to do this training; someone that is not 100% commited to it will turn out nothing but dogs that are a danger to be around. - I have been training dogs for about 30 years. I like to think I'm pretty good at it. I've even read about PP dogs and how to train them, so I think I have the knowledge, the temperament, and the common sense to train one on my own, although I have never done so.
That said, I would NOT train a dog for protection for the first time without an experienced protection trainer guiding me. Just because I THINK I know what I'm doing, doesn't mean I do. I'd rather do it under the supervision of someone who is experienced with it.
If I screw up attempting to train my first tracking dog on my own, no harm done. But when you're teaching a dog to attack people, and you screw it up, the repercussions can be serious. - Not all dogs apply. Dog needs to be evaluated...your average Joe, wouldnt have a clue whether or not a dog has what it takes.
Personally, I wouldnt know where to start. You cant get that information in books, i think it would have to be someone who's had years and years of experience.In either case, if I needed protection, for whatever reason, I really wouldnt rely on an animal to provide that. There are plenty of other, more reliable, options. - If anyone can train a PPD without messing it up, everyone would have one. It's not something that should be taught to family pets. If the average pet owner decided to train their APBT/German Shepherd/Chihuahua in Personal Protection without a professional trainer, the chances of it not being human aggressive is slim. Being aggressive and protective are two different things. If the owner was walking their dog that they personally trained in PPD, it would most likely growl and attack a stranger just walking by than an attacker.
I'm sure that makes little to no sense so I'm not going to go further into the subject as I do not own or train PPDs and I have not done my research. - No I do not think that the average person should try to train their dog to attack or for personal protection. You should pay a professional for this & I also feel that only certain breeds can be trained in personal protection, such as the Doberman.
I think people who need protection should go with a gun or alarm system, if an intruder breaks in my house, I'm CERTAINLY not going to count on my Chihuahua's to save me or any dog for that matter, I would rather have a gun to blow the head off the guy.
If a dog does protect his family in a sticky situation, then more power to that dog, because that dog, obviously knew the difference, but I still feel a dog should not be trained to do so by the average person. That's why there are certain breeds being trained correctly by professionals who know what they are doing.
I do feel that anyone is capable of basic training & obedience, however when it comes to a dog being used for protection, people need to be aware that not all dogs can be trained to provide protection & certainly cannot be trained by just anybody.
If I wanted a dog for personal protection, I would get the right dog from the right person. I would not want a potentially unstable dog around my family or child. - The average dog owner doesn't even know how to use a prong or choke collar correctly, let alone train a dog for protection training.
Unless they have been working with an experienced Personal Protection trainer for years, watching and studying how he does it, they have no idea what to do.
The average pet dog is very unfit for this kind of work. It most likely does not have the drive or genes for it. It would probably turn out to be a fear aggressive, unstable dog, attacking any and all strangers who it sees a danger to itself. - There's more than a fine line between training a dog for protection and teaching one to be human aggressive. The idiots who ask those questions are not likely to even need personal protection, they just think having a 'tough' dog will make them look more manly. I get an even bigger kick out of the ones looking to make their labs and GRs to be guard dogs. If it was that simple (buying a book) to train a dog for protection, then a properly trained dog wouldn't cost tens of thousands of dollars. Wrong breed + wrong trainer/training = disaster
- You're right a majority of dog owners who did the training their self would just make their dog aggressive, which is in no way protection. People do not realize there is a difference between aggression and protection. My very good friend has been training dogs for 15 years and has a protection trained German Shepherd, nicest dog you have ever met and is even a therapy dog...But if a command is given he will do what is told, he does not react on his own unless a real threat is encountered, just like a protection dog should..No protection dog should go around growling and trying to bite anything that moves, that is a poorly trained dog that should more than likely just be euthanized for it's safety and others.
- When you say train themselves, do you mean they are the trainer or the handler?
if you mean they are the trainer, than no, without proper experience and understanding of dogs an average person will not be able to train their dog to be a PP dog. If you mean as a handler, than sure, with proper instruction from the trainer most people can learn how to train and handle their PP dog.
BTW, making a dog mean has nothing to do with training a PP dog. these dogs are not mean! they are confident and trained how to act and react in certain situation. I mean / aggressive dog can never be a good PP dog, to unpredictable.
Jasmer have you ever seen a well trained personal protection dog / ring dog or schutzhund dog?
these are the best behaves, predictable dogs you will ever encounter. they will not attack unprovoked. In fact they are the ones nicely walking in a heel position next to their owner and ignoring the rest of the world as it does not concern them. - I think it all depends on the trainer and the dog. Not every dog has the drive or desire to be a personal protection dog and there is nothing wrong with that. My dobermans were awesome at their job and that was keeping the couch from walking off. They had no desire to do anything more. They knew basic commands and loved going places with me but they had no drive for "anything bigger and better". If you have a dog who want to do something, who is really responsive to training, etc they have the ability to do anything you want to teach them whether it's agility or personal protection. Here is an example of a dog who has the desire and is being trained to do more than just retrieve: http://www.advantagek9.us/chesapeakes.ht…
As far as the trainer, I think most people who are actively involved with personal protection training have some sort of mentor or are involved with a training group. There are many seminars held dealing with how to properly train your dog and I think in the end the owner/trainer is the one training the dog, but the mentor is the one training the trainer. I do not think you can read a book or watch a you tube video and learn everything you need to know to effectively train a dog. The other thing to remember is obedience training is the most important part of personal protection training.
add: replace everywhere I wrote trainer with handler and mentor with trainer/mentor - i dont believe in protection dogs why people train them like this
if you treat your dog properly then the dog will protect you its a simple as that
when you see the dogs behaving so aggressivly and half of them not even attempting to realease
you think accident waiting to happen what if a kid strolls in
some people believe the right looking dog at their side makes them cooler
the next person believes the right looking dog with the agressivness makes them cooler still
half the time its like keep up with the joneses
mean while the decent dog owner who does every thing right by the dog [training socializing etc ]
gets the back lash that these owners cause just because they own the same breed
i have a bullmastiff who does protect me he wasnt trained to do that he just does
a man was walking behind me too close it was dark and no one else was a round my dog kept on turning around and looking at the man the next thing the man started to run upto me my dog started growling and looking really fierce standing in between us it was all in inocence though the man only wanted a light for his cigerette but my dog didnt know that
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