Is Your Dog Training You?
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I absolutely agree! You TRAIN with positive methods. You enforce the commands learned in training with corrections. By the time you reach the corrections phase, you've already trained the dog everything you want it to do. Now you're PROOFING your work, not training!
Your statement didn't say "no corrections ever" which is wrong or "no corrections while teaching" which is right. In the beginning the only "negative" is a "no" and absence of reward. The idea is to train in drive so your dog complies quickly and so you can micromanage exercises so they're done precisely how you want. Look at a Belgian Ring dog to obedience, then a French Ring dog. The Belgian Ring dogs sits, lays down, stands, etc....but the French Ring dogs does all of those things in the same exact SPOT! Difference? Belgian Ring trainers are mostly compulsion based trainers and FR trainers are usually into marker or clicker training and can micromanage a single exercise to the literal point of perfection. To teach a dog to keep his front feet in the same place and to tuck his butt under to sit, and kick his legs backward to stand, so he stays in 1 location without taking little half steps forward as most pets do (try it out, tell your dogs to sit, down, and stand...they'll move a couple of steps guaranteed!).
Training 100% positive in the teaching phase keeps the dog motivated. The purpose of correction is -usually- to lower drive...when teaching you want all the drive you can handle! You want engagement, you want attention, you want motivation! You want the dog to think training with you is the best thing on this planet, bar none. Adding corrections during the learning phase will make training with you the most terrible part of his day. Once the dog has learned and loves training, you add corrections to let the dog know "Hey training is great fun right? Well there's a catch...now that you know these behaviors...I expect you to perform them on command...every time...BUT! When you do you'll be rewarded, granted rewards will be just a teensy bit fewer and further between because you're an adult now". Most dogs trained the proper way will be thinking of the rewards of training with you (fun things like winning the tug, chasing a ball as a reward, delicious food) vs avoiding pain or discomfort like the dog who learned how to heel by getting "automatic" corrections, or the dog who doesn't like to fetch because he was trained with a forced retrieve etc.
A Beginner's Guide to Dog Training
- I totally disagree. Everything must be "balanced". Acceptable, not acceptable. Black and white.
I am a "positive" trainer. Just one that has not lost her marbles and gone to the extreme.
I have seen several of these Pos. only trainers with their dogs. After several years of training, the dogs still have the same issues.
The concept of ignoring a bad behavior until the dog decides to stop, then reward it, is absurd. In so many cases what I see in the timing is that the dog is actually being rewarded for misbehaving.
Even with my children, I instilled the sense of "consequences".
Breeds are different. Individuals are different. The amount of "correction" varies greatly from one dog to another, and the punishment should fit the crime...from a very stern "AH AH!" through threatening their life. But the dog needs to know when he has behaved in an unacceptable manner. As well as he needs to know when he gets it right. - Depends on your definition of "punishment".
Is a verbal correction for something done wrong a punishment? If you tell a dog to sit and it jumps on you instead, is pushing the dog down with a firm "nuh uh" a punishment? I don't agree that any training is effective without correction of some kind. It doesn't have to be physical or aggressive, but I think refusing to correct negative behaviors will only weaken and draw out the training process. We have all seen first hand how animals correct one another, if a puppy bites mom, does mom simply ignore the behavior and wait for them to do something nice instead before paying attention to them? No, she corrects them. If a dog at the park gooses another dog too intently, does the other dog stand politely waiting for a nicer greeting? No, he growls or snaps at the offending dog. All animals learn by combined reinforcement: positive for good behavior, negative for bad behavior. Some animal behaviors are self-rewarding, even if you ignore them, they're still having fun and will see no reason to stop the behavior, since you are not objecting to it. - Disagree.
I MUST train ALL dogs within a reasonable amount of time. I cannot choose dogs or wash out dogs that have no drive, or do not naturally WANT to workf or and with you. I must have dogs working basic obedience comands applicably by 2 weeks. Try acheiving this using 'all positive' training with a Chow chow that wants nothing more than to put you in the hospital...
Besides that this method ignores an important aspect of a dog's nature and natural means of learning. All you have to do is watch an experienced dam with a litter to see that not even dogs use an 'all positive' training method! - Disagree.
Yes there are aspect of training where "punishment" won't benefit (such as house breaking, which is almost completely positive) but there is NO WAY any living being can properly learn ANYTHING without some sort of "punishment" or "negative" to counter unwanted behavior and disobedience. Even humans don't live or learn completely on "positive only" (or have these PR people never been grounded as a child?)
Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree that no dog should be punished for miscommunication or confusion. Correcting a dog that doesn't know what "sit" means (IE was never shown the appropriate reaction tot eh command) is utterly useless. However a dog that has been introduced to a command, knows the command, has performed the command, but willfully ignores it at one point is another story altogether.
And behavior work (working with aggression for example) is yet again another story - behavior work and training are NOT THE SAME. With an aggressive dog you are not teaching a command, you are correcting a behavior. Duh.
My dog started out with clicker training. Then i moved on to proofing her (once i figured out what it was). Now if i want her to learn a new command i show her what i want of her, repeat the command-then-show routine up to or more than 100 times in various settings, then i work on proofing it once i know for a fact she has linked command to action. It works. I use a Prong on her as well, to continue to correct unwanted behaviors, and i offer praise for wanted behaviors. It's a mix. - First you need to define punishment. Is a verbal correction "NO" considered a punishment? In truly purely positive training is would be considered a punishment. So I need to know to what extreme your definition is. I use all four quadrants in my training because I use a balanced approach. The following scenario describes the quadrants. As you can see to train a dog effectively you need to use all four quadrants.
Scenario: Counter surfing dog.
Positive reinforcement: The dog is praised and rewarded when he is not on the counter. (intital training)
Negative Reinforcement: Crate or remove the dog the dog whenever there is any food on the counter (management)
Negative Punishment: Remove all the good stuff off of the counter and hope that the behavior extinguishes itself. (unreward the behavior)
Positive punishment: Cans are placed on the counter so that when the dog jumps up on the counter, he knocks them down. The dog learns that the floor is a very safe place to be.(proofing)
So no even in theory you cannot use just one quadrant to effectively train any animal be it dolphin, human, or canine. People seem to forget this. Too many people especially the purely positive trainers get the quadrants screwed up. The best trainers that used these quadrants in their training are the so called evil correction trainers like Bill Koehler. - Substitute the word "corrections" for the word "punishment".
Punishment has no place in dog training. Dogs do not have the intelligence level to understand "punishment". Corrections can be anything from a stern "No" to a physical correction. I have found that the people I know who "punish" their dogs have issues of their own they need to work out, like their patience level and their egos.
Once again, positive reinforcement is purposefully misunderstood.
My answer is my training methods work for me, so yes, they are the best methods for ME. No one is going to convince me otherwise by bashing my methods on a website. - In both dogs and children, I've only seen spoiled brats come out of this method. The kind who have never heard the world no, and don't realize what they're doing wrong because their owners/parents simply ignore them when they do.
As with everything, it's a delicate balance. When a dog does well, then it's good to use positive reinforcement.
When they've done wrong though, they need to know what they've done wrong. No hitting or rubbing their noses in their own poo though.
PS. don't know why I didn't add this. But I know most people tend to remember the negatives better than the positives. You grab a rose bush and get a hand full of thorns, how many times are you going to try and do that again? Especially with the worrysome behaviors (nipping, escaping, car chasing and others that have to be nipped in the butt then and there) posititive reinfocement most likely won't work. - Purely positive is the best method because you don't hurt the doggy's feelings.
I think the problem folks have with it is they are not carrying enough different treats with them to make it effective.
Example:
You dog wants to sniff. Reach into the treat bag you have and take out a piece of cheese, wave it in front of him and he will want to sniff it instead, it might take a moment for the smell to waft over to him, just repeat your commands again and again and again, don't sound mad, make it sound like you are begging him to listen.
NOW
Say your dog sees a rabbit across the street- this is where having MANY different treats available at all times is important.
You see the PP's put "values" on the treats. So for this situation you need something really good, like Filet or Prime Rib, or Venison- you might at the time of the incident wave each of these in front of him as he goes dashing across the street. Again as you grab each different treat you repeat, Come, come, come, come. Chances are a car is not coming and you have a lot of time to figure out what the doggy really is hungry for-that he likes better then rabbit. In fact you might carry Rabbit or Squirrel in your treat bag for this very reason.
To accomplish this, you must have the right equipment- meaning you have to carry enough different food with you at all times so that you can rifle through the bag for the right goodies as the situation is presented.
This is the treat bag I carry AT ALL TIMES I am with my dog so that I am PREPARED with different "value" treats. The key to succesful PP training.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Sierra-Trail-… - Depends on the dog. Most dogs can be trained with positive reinforcement only.
There are dogs that are strong willed or dominant and might need a little negative reinforcement, not punishment though. Punishment is a human invention. One might have to firmly say "NO!" with a correction. The sad part is that most humans lose their cool once in awhile and end up punishing. Dogs don't understand punishment. - I completely agree.
I've had so much trouble trying to train my dog because I wasn't positively reinforcing the training with her. When trying to train a dog, it can be difficult because, with many commands and rules in general, you have to wait for the dog to do it on its own. So when the dog finally does something correct, you have to positively reinforce the heck out of it.
This is only part of the process, though. I don't really believe in 'negative' reinforcement (yelling, hitting, spraying). However, say, if a dog keeps trying to get at food, shouting some sort of quick, definitively-sounding noise every time the dog trys to get near the food will let the dog know (after a few 'ah!'s) that they should just leave it alone.
It doesn't seem that dogs can really grasp the concept of punishment, anyway. Try putting a dog in a time out for ten minutes, and see how well they understand why what they did was wrong.
Hope you like my answer! - Although I believe 99.9% that Positive Reinforcement is the proper way to train a dog, there are incidents that WILL OCCUR that beg for sterner measures with any species of animal.
The biggest problem with Positive Reinforcement is that there is the inherent possibility that the dog will begin to regard the trainer/owner as an equal. And in a dogs instinctive mind that cannot happen; there has to be a dominant and a submissive. And the dog will instinctively try to become the dominant one through no fault of it's own. Their brains are simply wired that way.
There are ways to correct this without punishing the dog but they can be time consuming and are not always 100% effective. However, if the dog is punished using pack methods the dog will respect you and not fear you. Dogs don't understand physical violence in human terms - slapping a dog or kicking at it resolve nothing and only make things worse.
I use the time honoured pack method - and I've only ever had to do this once. I simply put the dog to the ground and bit his ear. In less than 5 seconds I resolved over a year's worth of 'issues' with this dog which had culminated with him seriously biting my face. It taught the dog to respect me and saved him from the alternative - and that was to have him put down.
That was 3 years ago, and this dog has turned out to be the best dog that I have shared a roof with in over 40 years. And that is saying a lot for a dog that came here under a sentence of death for past misdeeds that he had carried out. - Positive to teach new behaviors, sure. Imagine you're blind, and your guide dog walks you past obstacles and distractions without you knowing any of it was there...happily, not looking for reward, and without fear of correction. They choose to. This takes time. If the dog's work relied on correction only, they'd endanger their people.
I train guide dogs with positive reinforcement to choose to ignore distraction, not out of fear of aversives. Food reward using counter conditioning and clicker training. The conditioning is so strong that once trained, they work past without looking for reward. And without fear. I know my clients are safe. And yes they do carry treat pouches, and they do variably reward good behaviors, like a nice street crossing after stopping for a car. Or for reversing away from a train platform edge. Or for finding their mailbox.
How sweet is that?
Let me qualify this: once a dog is taught a behavior, they are expected to comply. A correction, verbal or leash, commensurate with the error, is fair - the dog must know that their choice was wrong, and be redirected to the correct behavior, and then praised. I entrust people's lives with my dogs. And of course, not all dogs make it. We used to be 100% compulsion, with only verbal praise. It's a much nicer world now. - Depends on the dog, his temperament. With my hounds, I usually get far better results if I keep it positive. In fact I could demolish some of my boys if I got too heavy with them and if that happens, with the Basset, you get shut down (at best) and possibly downright fear biting (worst scenario).
I do agree that with some dogs, there has to be a degree of consequence for actions. - Disagree. *Without any punishment.* If this REALLY worked then Launi would have stopped jumping on my lap, putting her face in mine whilst using her strength to hold me in position so she could lick my face including me ears, neck and hair.
So, I manage with much grunting and groaning to remove her from me, get her on the floor and give her a *good girl*? A treat?!!!
No. I remove her and demand a sit/down/stay for a length of time. THIS is her *punishment* for outrageous behavior which could hurt me and is entirely unacceptable.
If THAT did not work, I would get very physical. She now lays beside me and does not even attempt to do this crap and hasn't for over a year.
Done. - Both ways could work. Different dogs learn different ways just like different people learn different ways. With my dog, I used a punishment method of time out in his cage when he was a puppy. Or when we're walking and he pulls I'd give a simple tug on the leash and make him sit for 10 seconds. If they're peeing on the rugs use positive reinforcement and show him the newspaper or take him outside more. It really depends on the dog and the situation.
Could you answer mine?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;… - Disagree. Certainly dogs are not human, but what if you ONLY praised your child and ignored bad behavior? They'd be running wild. It's a yin and yang kind of thing-you need both to get real. Praise is great and positive training is too, but limits have to be set. This doesn't mean beating your dog or screaming at it. A stern "no" is just sometimes needed.
- Would you do this to your child? Say your Dog is running for the road and cars are flying by, what do you do? If you don't set boundaries, and limitations,you'll have a very unhappy dog.If you love him/her you'll give corrections.I am a trainer, I train dog's that have had no correction's their whole life.Bitting,growling,digging,tearing things up,not social with people,dog's.I hear "if this don't work the next step is the pound".If they did their homework first,and started setting boundaries and limitations thing's would not be so bad. So I Disagree!!
- i disagree for the most the part.
some dogs can be trained with just positive reinforcement, like my dog sophie. now emmy on the other hand, we have to be stern and occasionally punish, mainly cause she's younger and was never trained by the previous owners. - Disagree.
Common Sense is my Reason.
But hey, whatever works for the owner and dog is fine but in general, I do NOT believe in +Reinforcement. - person with the quote misunderstands conditioning, evidenced by their misuse of terms, even in such a basic statement.
the world I live in is full of consequences and reward. last i checked, my dogs live here, too. - In the absense of compulsion, neither human education nor dog training is possible...Col Most!
No such thing as ONLY positive and no proofing without compulsion, period, end of. Hope I helped. - Disagree. There are many many times where appropriate corrections are warranted and needed. Nothing but PR might work for SOME dogs, but that is far from true of all dogs.
- Never have been able to figure out this only positive training thing, but I have seen dogs trained like that---not a pretty sight
- I don't care how many hugs and kisses a dog gets for being good, you need both ends of the spectrum to balance things out.
- Agree. I'm not an expert, but I was able to train my dog to potty on command using hand signals and treats. Usefull for when you need to go out or when it's raining outside and you want to send your dog out while you watch from the window.
- with a lot of LOVE & patience
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