I'm asking because I'm probably gonna buy the book for my dog, and I'm just wondering how others did using this method. Thanks!
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Yes - I've known more than a few and they turned out very well.
As with everything -- use what works for you and your dog and discard the rest.
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- I am sure that there are methods in the book that you can incorporate into your own training routine. Just don't take everything as the gospel truth, as with any training method. It depends on the dog and how it responds to which method of training.
BTW can someone tell me WTF a "qualified" trainer is. I have seen this mentioned on many post today by a level 1 newcomer and have no idea what it means?
feeling a little bltchy tonight LOL - I'm just looking into these training methods. I use to know some people with the most well behaved Dobermans ever and they only trained using the Koehler method.
About a month ago I purchased a 1962 hard-copy edition in great shape of "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" from half.com for $2.98 (under $7 with shipping).
I have not read it yet, but you will find some great book scores off of half.com. It's owned by eBay but it's NOT an auction. The sellers are rated like eBay sellers, but you are purchasing outright. I would never purchase from someone with less then a 98% rating.
Just an FYI.
. - My opinion? Nothing is brilliant about Koehler. Many people think his method is ingenious, but it's anything but! Koehler is old and outdated. Yes, it's been around for decades, but decades have come and gone since then! What was a brilliant training method back then isn't now. This is the 21st century for heaven's sake! Things have changed. People have found more effective ways to train dogs without fear or force.
William Koehler's training methods are outdated and barbaric! There will ALWAYS be everlasting fans of his unfortunately, but hopefully they will get outnumbered by people who are finding a BALANCE or a MIDDLE GROUND between two very opposite methods aka positive reinforcement and the dominance/alpha/pack leader method.
I despise this website! http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/ The two people who wrote that lecture clearly think quite highly of themselves.
Usually, it's the older generation that swears by Koehler because they're always set in their ways. They don't have the decency to hold their heads up, swallow their pride and realize that there are BETTER training methods!
I really hope you don't choose this training method for your dog. It's sad to see someone as young as you choose a method that has been scrapped (by anyone who has common sense) for quite a while now.
ADD: You mentioned in one of your previous questions that you were a teenager. - I used this method with an airedale terrier, with disastrous consequences. Note that I did not do it on my own, but attended obedience classes with a trainer who practiced Koehler's methods. My dog turned out aggressive, yet fearful, took 2 1/2 years to housebreak and was completely untrustworthy with other dogs and cats.
- Not a fan at all....
It is a must read if you're a serious trainer no doubt but it's beyond dated. Those books HURT more dogs than they help.
Koehler trained military dogs, if they didn't "survive" his training oh well, junk, get me some new ones they failed. Unless you have the same philosophy with pet dogs, his methods simply don't overlap. The other argument is his work with Disney which is the same concept...if the dog wasn't to his liking aka not hard enough to take the extreme amounts of pressure he put on them, he'd get another dog and write that one off.
It's also based on a timeline. You can have a loose timeline that's fine, but you're an idiot if you think you can make some "schedule". You bring dogs around when they're ready, you don't follow some schedule. HUMAN error, the dog, his temperament, different things can result in a dog who's slower to catch onto things (or faster). You have to work around the dog unless...like I said before, you trash dogs that don't fit your routine. You can't MAKE a dog be what you want them to be and if the dog is slower there's nothing you can do but be patient.
If you've taught him everything with reward, and he's blowing off your commands? Feel free to go Bill Koehler on him. He deserves a correction. BUT if his lack of performance is due to you NOT rewarding his good behavior with high value food/toys/play or because you're boring him to death, that's a handler error. You're working with an animal with an attention span of .02 seconds. You have to remain animated, up beat, know when to give treats for his focus etc. I move around, when I get eye contact or good focus I reward etc etc. When the dog has definitely learned what I want, and has learned that training can be fun, then I add corrections if he so chooses not to obey. It's a clear choice. DO it and be rewarded. Don't do it, be corrected, and be forced to do it, and NOT be rewarded. That's plain common sense that even an animal with a 4 ounce brain can understand.
Like I said, it's an interesting read, but even my mom back in the 70's had surpassed this crap and used food rewards with her dogs (and did very well vs the "never give a dog food or they'll only work for food" crowd).
Look at the top AKC OB dogs, the top 5 Sch dogs, the top 5 FR dogs, and the top 5 Agility and Mondio Ring dogs and I bet you they all have owners who believe in reward, markers, and motivation before they ever correct a dog. Results speak LOUDLY. The best dog trainers on this planet bar none are French...Germans, Slovaks, Czechs, all make fun of them for being "soft" trainers...but they give corrections when needed and at the end of the day they take WEAKER dogs than the Germans/Czech/Slovaks train, and train them to do MORE. They can bring a weaker dog to competition and win simply because their training is more solid. To me that makes it pretty clear that a bond, and reward based teaching systems + Corrections = well trained dog.
PS: I know somebody is going to say something stupid such as: "Not everybody trains protection sports"...granted, but in case you haven't noticed 95% of protection sports is obedience, heeling, positions, control under EXTREME drive...if you can control a dog in the situations in protection sports, life around the house/dog park isn't ****. That's why when I talk about training and trainers I talk about these dog sports, that's why some of the best trainers come from these disciplines. - I have used some of the methods on Rock. I think that training a dog should be with more than one training method, and it's more of a figuring out what will work best in the current situation. I've never met a dog that's been trained only on the Koehler method, though.
- I train based upon the Koehler Method. The dogs do great. We get happy, willing workers who live for the praise and think the best place to be in any crisis is at the Heel position with their owner. Bomb-proof dogs. Just tear out the back half of the book. He gets too rough for my taste.
- I'm currently reading one of his books, but i don't think I've met a straight Koheler trained dog.
Obviously his methods work, some of them are still good today.
Personally, I find it harsh at times. - I bought the book, joined the group and I found it interesting.
I agree with some of the basic concepts.....I think its helpful to allow a dog to learn from natural consequences and make the dog pay attention to the handler, since he doesnt know what the handler will do next.
All my dogs know too much to hit the end of the leash, but I tried doing 90 and 180 degree turns with six of my dogs. Some of them responded very well, and some didnt.
My sensitive Westie mix shut down. One foster dog, who did not respond to my usual approach to forging, started watching me carefully, and seemed to actually enjoy the training. My big, insensitive Lab mix was unimpressed (but it takes LOT to impress him). The other three dogs started paying better attention.
Parts of the approach are rougher than I am comfortable with, but I think its definitely worth reading. - I grew up with the method, and that was long before Koehler ever wrote a book. I still use the concepts (if not the methods) yet today.
So to answer your second question; yes, literally hundreds.
As to how did they turn out? Well I have 122 of these in this notebook covering several different disciplines. http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp43/…
And it only took me 70 years to do that ;-)
However, even more important than the method you choose to use is the training program that you apply that method to.
First decide what you want for a finished dog, then plot out a flow chart of how you intend to get there.
Here is a flow chart used for training Retrievers that is used by many trainers, including me.
http://www.totalretriever.com/rj/totalre…
Each section of the chart represents about 6 months, resulting in a dog that is ready for open all age competition at 2 years of age.
Oh and Emily, there is no such thing as "positive reinforcement training". Even just ignoring a behavior is a correction, thus training through the use of punishment. If you are using Operant Conditioning, you are using all of it or you are not using any of it.
"add: i dont just ignore a bad behavior, if its happening, i make a noise, and correct him"
And that my dear is training through the use of Positive Punishment -- NOT -- Positive Reinforcement
edit:
"Usually, it's the older generation that swears by Koehler because they're always set in their ways. They don't have the decency to hold their heads up, swallow their pride and realize that there are BETTER training methods!"
Now the hair on my neck is bristling!
Being as I am one of those from the "older generation" (I'm 70), and I can assure you that there isn't a method of training out there that I haven't studied (and observed the results), your premise is WRONG!
What you are failing to understand is that as time has progressed, so have the methods that pressure is applied during training. Thus my statement above "I still use the concepts (if not the methods) yet today." The harshness of a correction is up to the trainer, not the training method.
The base concepts of Koehler are the application of Operant Conditioning, pure and simple. The concepts of Koehler are about WHEN a correction is appropriate, NOT how it is applied or how harsh it is. The individual dog will determine the "how and how harsh", not the training method.
AND, I hold my head up quite high, I have earned the right to do so!
So what you need to do is try to explain away why it is that those of us from the "older generation" are the ones that just seem to keep right on WINNING in every dog sport there is. Maybe we have learned, through experience, a lot more than you think! - you love me??? what???? lol
but i prefer positive reinforcement, but i know how to use it so its affective.
its whatever works for you.
if you have no idea how to rightfully use training methods, dont even try ANYTHING but positive.
thats my opinion though :)
my dog, using positive reinforcement, is very obediant and even though he is getting real old, he is still quick to his feet in training.
what kind of method do you use now?
add: oh, lol well i wish you both have a happy life together! XD
but it makes sense dogs are different, i have a lab/pit mix, great dog. just make sure to study up on any method you use(i know you are), dont want to hurt the dogs:) good luck to you!
add: i dont just ignore a bad behavior, if its happening, i make a noise, and correct him. it makes abosolutly NO sense to the dog if they are getting yelled at for something they did hours ago though,.
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