The modern dog training method encourages marking when the dog "accidentally" stumbles upon the trick he's supposed to be doing when given a command. There's no actual physical handling or touching of the dog. Why not? Doesn't this slow down the training when the dog has to try out an infinite amount of things to do until he does the right thing?
Need Help With Dog Training? Help is at Hand
Recommended Answer:It depends on the dog. Every dog is motivated by different things, and every dog learns quicker from different methods, which is why it's vital for professional dog trainers to never tie themselves to one method alone, but practice all methods that don't go against their morals or the law. It their normal method doesn't work, they need to be able to quickly adjust to a differnt alternative way of training th dog.
I've tried a "no-hands" method, but it worked on only one of my dogs. He picked it up quick, and seemed to apreciate the method a lot better then getting petted, and/or pushed into the position. However, my other two dogs at the time did not understand at all. One of them needed constant psyical contact to know which trick you want. Not pushing him in position, but tapping his rump to make him sit, his nose to make him bark, his paw to give you a 'high five', etc... The other dog, while he did pick up on the no-hands tricks, was not all that enthused about it. He did the tricks a whole lot faster and better when he knew he would get a pet-praise afterwords. I also learned that both the dogs who understood them, even though one didn't like it, did a lot better at responding to simple hand-gestures without vocal commands, however, whether this is a reflection on their intelligence to pick up the hand-gesture association or if it had to do with the no-hands training is unknown. I would also like to point out that the dog who prefers pet-praises after he does the tricks learns a lot faster then the other two, and is more driven to challenging tricks. ((it took little over thity minutes to teach him to play dead, and later the same day he learned to spin on his hind legs in just under two hours for example, where as the dog who likes the no-hands trick usually takes a whole day to learn a trick, and then you need consistent drilling so he wont forget, and the third dog took a week just to learn 'sit'. This, however, is most likely just the intelligence level of the individual))
So yes, because dogs vary so much in personality and preferences, it is possible to combine the two methods without controversy. You might be able to begin with using your hands to get the dog to start the process of associating the word with the trick before transcending into a non-hands method to prefect the trick. Once he knows the trick 'spin' for example, just continue telling him to spin, with only phrases after he's done it, or saying 'no' if he does it incorrectly. Furthermore, we know dogs do learn that begging them gets them treats, and shoving their heads under your arm get's them petted, and many dogs pick up on these tricks quickly, without training. This suggests they do learn easily what would get them patted, and what get's them fed, and will do these acts with or without your liking.
furthermore, it might slow down the training, or it might increase the time, once again, this is relevant to the specific dog in question, and the answer varies. Some dogs, if they don't understand, will either do their favorite trick, or one they recently learned, or simply lose interest if you aren't actively trying to get them into the position. With no hands, the trick is learning what hand movements will manipulate them into the position. Some tricks are easy, like for lay down, get the dog to sit, and place your hand on the floor. Most will stretch their nose out to sniff your hand, and will lay down in order to do so. Others are next to impossible with no hand method, like teaching your dog to place your hand on yours. After you've found what motion makes your dog do what, you need to figure out how to let the dog know that they did it right. Usually a simple 'good dog'' will work, however, many of the higher-energy dogs will lose interest if they only get a phrase, and their attention can be grabbed by a treat. Some dogs prefer psychical contact, and will do tricks quicker if they know you're likely to pet them sooner.
No one can give you a straight 'yes' or 'no' answer to your questions, because there is no yes or no answer, not when talking about the training in general. There is only a yes or no answer when you are asking about a specific individual dog, and even then the answer is most likely "hey, your dog responds quickly to this and this, might learn from this and that, and doesn't seem to understand blah and blah"
But it seems your dog has picked up on the no-hands method quickly.
Cut Training Time in Half with Clicker Dog Training
- With or without a clicker, it works really well when training large dogs, particularly teaching them to lie down. When I adopt a rescued greyhound, it knows no obedience commands. Greyhounds don't stand for long before wanting to lie down - as soon as I see the dog going down I say "down" cheerfully and when he completes the move, praise "good down!". No other reward is needed. This introduces them to the concept of training and makes it easier to teach "sit", which is not a natural position for them - unlike most dogs, where sit is the first command. I "trained" one dog to scare away squirrels raiding a bird feeder that hangs at a window. On her own, she went to the window and barked, so I grabbed the opportunity. I barked along with her, used a command word, praised her, and gave her a treat. In no time, she was reliably repelling squirrels. As a bonus, she turned into a watchdog. The front door is on the same side of the house so she interpreted a knock on the door as the same thing as the feeder banging against the window, and got extravagantly praised.
You don't wait until the dog performs the requested bahavior perfectly. As soon as he moves in the right direction, you click or otherwise mark, which moves the dog along gradually until he completes the desired action.
- I also do this method. It actually helps the dog to think more, and get more clever and smart. unlike other dogs that will just sit there and just wait untill somethnig happens. I use this and clicker training to teach a dog a behavior. Or you can get the dog to follow the treat so teach them spin or rollover, or bow. Back to the answer. I say that once the dog understand that he has to keep guessing of what you want him to do, he will understand much faster, and learn faster.
- Actually no - the dog learns much faster because he is figuring it out for himself.
Using a clicker, with no previous dumbbell or retrieving work, I was able to "shape" a Basset Hound into picking the dumbbell up from 6 feet away and bringing it to me in about 15 minutes.
When you have a motivated dog that wants to learn, when they have to figure it out for themselves, they understand the exercise much better and learn faster.
Touching a dog will often distract them from what you are trying to teach them - they pay attention to the fact that they are being touched and don't focus on what else you are doing and saying. In fact, try concentrating on what someone is saying if they are touching *you* at the same time.
EDIT: @ Jen - Actually, with a motivated dog I've seen the response time IMPROVE over time, because they are eager to work. For example, the down. At first it is hesitant because the dog is not sure what is wanted. As the dog becomes more confident, the speed increases. Within a short time I have a dog that is dropping like a rock.
And I dunno, maybe YOU might learn better if someone manipulates you into place (I personally would be rather annoyed that someone was doing that to me, which would lessen my ability to concentrate on what I was supposed to be learning), but I find the dogs I've actually worked with learn quickly when they figure it out on their own. The dumbbell work mentioned above - that sort of progress normally takes days or even weeks using traditional methods.
EDIT - @ OP - You said it yourself, your dog is distracted and not motivated. You need to find what motivates your dog to work for you.
- Physical handling and pushing the dog into position i guess is seen as too hands on, i cannot think of any negative for it other than the fact some person saw a puppy being taught to sit in the traditional way and considered in abuse.
I think it is a way for the dog to 'learn on its own', my dog is just my pet dog. He doesn't need to learn commands on his own, it won't make him any smarter or more trainable. Anything he needs to know on his own, has already been bound and set when sperm met egg.
Waiting for the dog to 'accidently stumble' into something? No, not for me!! I don't have all day to be waiting for my dog to accidently sit and jump on him with a marker and treat.
It slows it down of course, how can it not? The dog is in control of the timing, and even if you are very quick and can do it right at the second the dog does the action, you are still working at the dogs pace. Personally i see no problem in setting time aside each day for the dog to work at my pace and move it along.
The dog gets what is expected of him a lot quicker and clearer if he is shown and if there is physical manipulation, i mean wouldn't you?
- Not really. The dogs are motivated to figure out what they need to do to get the reward. Problem solving. Once they figure out the behavior we want, the tend to pick it up faster than if we were to force them into it.
We do capturing a lot. I'll sit down with rewards in one hand and a clicker in the other and just wait. The animals (cats too!) will start throwing out behaviors that have worked in the past and then start ofering new behaviors. It's pretty neat.
- These trendy new training methods are a joke, especially 'clicker training'.
It is a simple difference between teaching the dog (or the child) "I will get (and expect) a reward if I behave" or "I will get disciplined if I MIS-behave".
All you need to remember is how children used to be disciplined at school, when teachers were allowed to use 'physical correction', and compare it to the more recent teaching methods where "every child matters" and "no physical correction", to see how children today run riot and have no respect for authority, and that these newer soft methods are an absolute failure.
Of course there may have been the occasional abuse of 'physical contact', but there will always be abusers no matter what methods are used.
Given the choice of waiting for the dog to accidently stumble upon the 'desired action' and then immediately reward with a treat, is ridiculous. The dog will take a long time to associate the desired action with the reward, and expect a reward. It lets the dog do the 'trick' on its own terms, and puts the dog in control, not the handler.
By physically putting the dog into the desired position, and correcting him if he moves, is showing the dog *exactly* what is expected, and of course is a far more effective method.
Using the *correct level* of physical contact & correction will ALWAYS work better, quicker, and more effectively. It is how the Alpha Pack Leader treats the dogs in the wild, and is how dogs respond best.
But sadly, there are too many 'trendy liberals' who think that being an "Authority Figure" (ie, dominant Pack Leader) is a bad thing (whether it be dog-training or as a teacher in a school or as a parent) and think they need to be the dog's (or child's) "best friend" & "equal partner". HUMBUG! It is that silly mentality that has ruined any notion of "expected acceptable behaviour" and discipline, in dog-training & in childrens behaviour.
You can see these people with their bratty kids who run riot in the supermarket, pleading with their out-of-control kids to "please behave nicely darling, and mommy will give you some sweeties if you are good".... as opposed to the kids who know that if they dare misbehave, they'll get a smacked butt and sent to bed with no supper.
- This one will get me in trouble but I don't really care. If you love your dog and want him/her to be a good citizen then do what you should do with your child. TEACH it and have expectations. This includes praise for proper work and learning that disobeying has consequences. Accidentally stumbling upon tricks is sheer nonsense. Again, TEACH your dog, that's why God gave us the bigger brains. This new mumbo-jumbo might sound good but when you're out with your dog and all the distractions occur do want it to do as asked or wait until it accidentally does right? And accidentally doing wrong becomes habit also and has to be broken later on. Oh my, he's running after that other dog/horse and doesn't seem to want a cookie right now, if only he was in range of this silly clicking sound! Never correct a dog when it doesn't understand what is expected of it but once it has been taught and disobeys then don't feel bad about giving a correction just the way you praise it for properly behaving. I have friends who belive this hog wash and if you want to know someone who trains this way then go somewhere and when the person starts saying "she doesn't usually act like this", "oh, he's just excited", "he's not used to other dogs" etc then rest assured they expect nothing but "play and treat" training by rote. I have trained obedience competition dogs for 30 years, am a retired K-9 Officer and due to injuries suffered on thje job now use a Service Dog. ALL my dogs were trained/taught by me and all were capable of being taken into any sitution and acting in a way that made me proud and reflected well on them. My K-9s did not 'accidentally" learn to take down bad guys, they were taught. The streets are full of gang bangers whose parents "just don't know what to do" and it's no different with dogs. My Service Dog flies, goes to restaurants and movies with me, this CAN'T be left to chance, it must be properly taught. There's the truth. PS..watch a mother dog, she too corrects her young instaed of waiting for them to stumble on the fact that she doesn't want to nurse them anymore. You wouldn't wait until your child stumbled upon what you expected of it and until they get about 4 the dogs just as smart! And well/properly trained dogs have a sense of responsibility and pride lacking in cookie/clicker dogs and are much more confident and stable. Quit clicking and SHOW me what you want. Don't send me to a pound death because you're too weak willed to expect and enforce common/prudent rules.
- There is no accident. It can use Luring or perhaps the environment or build off of a earlier skill.
Now Free Shaping does involve capturing a small movement at first sometimes just a weight shift and then a little more and a little more.
Once a dog learns free shaping the dog will start to offer and then you have a dog that actually wants to learn and be right. This type of dog is faster at learning and more confident.
Most free shapers will work for about 2 minutes at a time.
Look tons of people over time have taught there dogs the way you are talking about so yes you can have success for sure. But where the problems come in is some people over do the force and some dogs really resist. I now know that free shaping is the best choice for all dogs and I do understand the dog that hasn't got the drive and that used to be my dog. All I can say is I now will train a new behaviour to a dog with free shaping every time. Yes some dogs stall out and don't get what you are expecting at first but this just means you make the exercise easier to many people want to lump a behaviour together into a completed behaviour.
I kind of feel from how you are talking about this topic that you may be convinced that your way is the way and Free Shaping wont work for your dog. I do hope you keep learning and give free shaping more of a chance, I have to say I had a clicker class years ago and I just didn't get it and even my instructor didn't understand it. I actually did a seminar with Susan Garrett after and saw with my own eyes how free shaping should be done, it works and I am a better dog trainer because of it.
Watch some Youtube videos on Operant conditioning and free shaping, look up Bob Bailey and BF Skinner
I don't know how much friendlier I can get remember just add one more tool in your dog training tool box.
Manhandling your dog is always slower.
