I was curious how those here in the dog section feel about Cesar Millan's way of training dogs, or more so his methods in training dogs.
At first, I was hesitant to his way of training. I've trained my pup and older dogs with positive reinforcement training. However, I have noticed that with certain dogs, positive reinforcement training is not always the best training to use.
I've seen people who have studied and followed Cesar's training, and their results have been amazing( mainly for walking a dog, or multiple dogs, the correct way to walk them)
Aside from your opinion on Cesar's method of dog training, what is the training method/exercises you use on your own dogs/on dogs you may train?
Dog Training Tips
Recommended Answer:Time for me to put in my two cents!
Some people need to do some serious reading… http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/ http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
Sorry to disappoint everyone, but Cesar Millan IS NOT a real dog trainer! Not even close! He is an actor!
Cesar Millan is a self taught “professional” dog trainer. I despise him! I don't see any certifications from him or any sort of schooling whatsoever! He just declares himself a dog trainer! Excuse me, but if you are serious about becoming an honest to god GOOD dog trainer, then you need to work for it. To start with, you must SLOWLY work with a local dog trainer (positive reinforcement) and then move on to working with well known, respected dog trainers. This will take YEARS of COLLEGE and SCHOOLING! Secondly, you MUST be willing to devote the time and hard work it takes to become a trainer. You MUST be willing to do a lot of research and work through all of the myths and craziness in the dog training world! You MUST love dogs and be passionate about training them! Has Cesar Millan done any of this? NO!
In my book, I only respect dog trainers that have gone to COLLEGE and WORKED for their animal behavior degree!
Cesar has a huge ego that I would LOVE to deflate! That kind of attitude NEVER goes over well with me.
Cesar Millan doesn't genuinely care about dogs. If he cared about dogs he would march himself out there and actually get an education in dog training and behavior.
I love positive reinforcement training. Positive reinforcement is not a death sentence. The goal of this method is to make training a more pleasant experience for the dog and owner while STILL producing a well trained dog.
You can't deny the fact that Cesar Millan isn't qualified in any way to train dogs. He has no business waltzing around telling people what to do with their dogs.
Now, lots of people will argue with me because Cesar Millan is accredited and recognized bythe International Association of Canine Professionals. Did he have any former training to begin with? No. He is still self taught. I know he claims that he reads dog psychology books all of the time, but I see he learns nothing from them nor do I believe that he reads those books in the first place. A large association like the IACP is not going to deny Cesar Millan a spot in their accreditation area since he has such a huge following. It all has to do with business. Its good business for them to accredit him whether he should be or not. And of course it does a lot of good for Cesar too.
The dominance/alpha training method has proven to do more harm than good! People will NEVER master the art of trying to be a dog or wolf! We will never be able to perfectly replicate what a dog will do to another dog. This is why the dominance/alpha/pack leader method is useless and has hurt many dogs and people. People have gone WAY overboard on this method. People become total idiots and power happy and all they focus on is more ways to enforce their position as a “PACK LEADER” and “THE BOSS.”
Centuries ago, people came up with their own ideas, opinions and methods about training dogs. This is not so anymore. This is the 21st century. Science has come into play and numerous studies have been done, therefore, there is now a RIGHT and a WRONG way of training dogs. You can train a dog with positive reinforcement without the crap Cesar millan preaches and STILL be the pack leader.
All he does is tell people to take your dog for a walk and exercise them a zillion times! Exercising your dog is very important, but it's not the cure to EVERYTHING! He also is CONVINCED that EVERY single dog is dominate and was put on this earth to overtake you!! WRONG! There are dominant dogs out there, but not many!
The huge problem that Cesar Millan has is the way he deals with aggressive dogs. Two wrongs don't make a right and he shouldn't fight and be aggressive right back to the dog. Obviously, literally fighting with an already aggressive dog WILL cause harm every single time. His dog psychology is quite mixed up. There are practicing, DEGREED animal behaviorists that use positive reinforcement and positive punishment to rehabilitate dogs. You can't tell me that Cesar Millan's “expertise” is more important than a VETERINAIANS opinion can you? Vets SEE first hand the physical damage that these outdated training techniques do! True animal behaviorists SEE the emotional damage.
He abuses dogs in my opinion! Violence and physical abuse is NEVER the answer! Dog trainer, dog whisperer, dog behaviorist, canine behaviorist, animal behaviorist WHATEVER you call the man, does NOT change the fact that he hasn't a CLUE on what he's doing. He is the WORST thing that has happened to the dog training world!
ADD: I'd write a lot more, but Y/A has (ANNOYINGLY!) restricted the length of answers so unfortunately, I can't keep elaborating on this matter (which I would like to do).
The Different Types of Dog Training
- I think you have to take Cesar with a grain of salt. I think in some cases you will need to use his methods for example: with a vicious or aggressive dog. I dont think Victoria has ever really tackled an aggressive dog but I havent watched in a few. I know the Best Friends Society has been working with the Vick Pit Bulls and have always used positive reinforcement and have gotten great results but some still havent passed the CGC tests.
My dogs have always had positive methods and not the domineering ones and are basically obedient but do need more training.
- I use positive reinforcement for all of my dogs,to be honest I've tried using Cesar's methods and they just dont work for my dogs,I have had great success with Victoria Stillwells training methods,and its what I've used on all 4 of my dogs,her methods even helped train my food aggressive and very dominant Border Collie.I'm not saying that Cesar is a horrible trainer,I'm just saying that his techniques dont work for my dogs.
- It's not based on science for the most part. What he does base on science is now out dated and proven incorrect. I believe it's dangerous to the handler and the dog. I do not believe it works. I feel it shuts down the dog, essentially creating a "ticking time bomb".
I use +R, -P for the most part. I will fall back on -R and +P. I also use some natural dog training.
Yeah positive reinforcement trainers work with "trouble" dogs a lot. I'm not sure where this notion that it won't work on these dogs came from. I adopted a "trouble" dog and found +R to be the only thing that worked with him.
People who speak out against +R do not understand it. Doesn't use OPERANT conditioning you mean? Actually it DOES.
- Hey I see that you need some sort of guide that will give you tips and tricks to help your dog become fully trained and more healthy. Recently one of my friends really needed some advice on how to train his dog. he followed the dog training academy course to successfully have a full trained dog in a few weeks. Lets just say that his dog doesnt bite me any more :) lol
- I prefer Victoria Stillwell's positive reinforcement method. As my trainer said, "You wouldn't work if you didn't get a paycheck. Why do you expect your dog to work if it isn't going to get a reward?" My dogs have always been beautifully behaved with positive reinforcement. Except for the slight little matter of trying to housebreak my latest puppy, that is! LOL!
- I believe his methods are dangerous and not very effective. I lean more towards Victoria Stilwell's methods.
- NOOOOO NOT CESAR!!!!! Victoria Stilwell is better.
- whats dangerous about cesar is he got a lot of it right so people are prone to say this guy know what he is doing, yet some things he got very horribly wrong and those things borders on animal abuse and if owners or kids at home did them could create extremely dangerous situations
for that reason i do not like the show, i dont mind the dog he helped the right way, but some of his methods or in some situations he is so flat out wrong there is just no way you could be mistacen even for watching it on tv
thats the reason several animal behaviouralists including some of those he say he learned from by reading (by what i read) are trying to stop the show, and here i mean animal behaviorists like people with science degree specialized in studying animal behavior
and yes scientists dont always agree, but i seen videos where he blame the breed and such, and scare playfull puppy into trying desperatly to get away from him while he blames it on breed and agression...reading up on the reasons why they are against it i tend to agree being against the show, and have for that reason never watched it on tv, my clips watched are on youtube, as i do not want to give the channels airing it viewtime numbers
and yes i admit that some of them where he been quite wrong made a strong impresion on me which means i would never feel comfortable allowing him near my dogs for training or handling, because the dogs i grown up with you could ruin a dog going in like that, either its going to end up broken or agressive ...but again its not all his shows or episodes, some are great and he got a lot of right tecniques as well
overall though when something become unreliable in such a way that while great in general, its making up for it on the other end the few times it dont work, then it becomes dangerous because its not dependable in my view
- Cesar never went to any kind of school to study the science of dog behavior (nor the skill of dog training), yet he calls himself a "behaviorist." Cesar learned outdated training methods from his father and made up the (very harsh, often unnecessarily cruel) rest as he went along. As a person who used to teach dominance theory and that same style of training (it is nothing new), I can tell you that it was announced to the world in 1995 by John Fisher, the late, greatly respected and beloved dog behaviorist of England, that dominance theory was only a theory, never a fact, and it had been disproven. Sixteen years later and Cesar hasn't heard the (old) news, yet. Not exactly someone that keeps up with the latest breakthroughs in animal science, is he? Personally, I prefer a more cutting edge kind of trainer.
Clicker training offers you Permanent Learning. All other kinds of training need (very) frequent drilling and practice or the dog will forget and you will have to re-teach the lessons. Too many people fail to believe that the dog HAS forgotten the lessons (even though humans only retain about 20% of what they learn) and choose to punish the dog or use punitive methods.
Dominance training appeals mightily to persons who are "control freaks." It is NOT necessary or desirable to micro-manage a dog's life. It does NOT matter who goes out the door, first, or if the dog sits on a lap, etc. These things are NOT signs of "dominance." Owners already control EVERYTHING the dog requires just to stay alive: food, water, shelter, a place to sleep, companionship, exercise, recreation...and dogs are AWARE of this.
Does anyone really want a pet that must be constantly scrutinized for signs of "dominance"? Or would people prefer to have a pet that loves to learn new things, is fun to have around, and can be allowed to just be a dog sometimes?
I've seen Cesar choke a dog into submission by depriving it of air. I've seen him mercilessly shock a dog that didn't like cats (and it didn't work). I've seen heartbreaking examples of learned helplessness get called "nice and calm." If he did any of that in my city, he would be arrested for cruelty to animals!
Maybe you haven't seen enough clicker training examples or read enough about it to compare the two well. For that, you can go to clickertraining.com and read a lot, watch some videos. Kindness, gentleness, and patience are things that never go out of style when working with animals. Moreover, some incredibly amazing things have been done with clicker work. I suggest you read "Reaching the Animal Mind" and "Dominance: Fact or Fiction."
- Cesar Millan is not a normal dog trainer. Dog trainers basically teach dogs how to sit, stay, down, etc. Cesar Millan grew up with dog packs around him and developed a pretty unique insight into the psychological dynamic in dog packs, their social structure and how dogs relate to one another and maintain order and balance in a pack. He uses these great insights to train people on how to have a better relationship with their dogs by understanding them and addressing their needs from a dog's point of view.
He shows people how putting themselves in a state of calm-assertiveness their dogs will naturally follow them and behave better because is it's programmed in their DNA to seek out balance and stability and follow that naturally. Most people are not calm and relaxed (or assertive) when they are with their dogs because of whatever is going on in their lives. Most people didn't understand how this affected their dogs and what behavioral consequences it had. Cesar Millan has changed that and brought awareness to these connections to the general public. If you see a poorly behaved dog (pulling on the walk, jumping on people, excessive barking, aggression, etc.) there is always a person that is responsible for that dog's condition (state of mind) as by nature dogs are balanced. It is not the dog. It is the owner who is responsible. Cesar Millan shows people that if they provide their dog with sufficient exercise, structure and affection (in that order) their dogs will naturally accept them as their leaders and return to a state of balance where most issues resolve themselves.
Cesar also does rehabilitation work that goes beyond what any normal dog owner can fix i.e. for severe aggression (dogs who want to kill), extreme anxiety, etc. He uses his own balanced dog pack in the Los Angeles Dog Psychology Center to bring these dogs back into their natural, balanced state with help of their doggy peers – “the power of the pack” as he calls it. He has rehabilitated many dogs other “trainers” recommended to have euthanized as he understands dogs better than many. He does sometimes get criticized for his methodology and approach of “working with nature” but that is usually by people who don't quite grasp nature's basic concepts when it comes to dogs.
I am a dog trainer and dogs learn through operand conditioning; period. No experienced trainer will suggest otherwise as that's just how it is. The latest research on this matter just reconfirmed this once more. The narrow-minded positive reinforcement only approach suggested above does not address all interactions between humans and animals. It completely ignores how dogs learn, which is through operand conditioning. Operand conditioning is a fancy term from 'actions have consequences'. If a dog sticks his nose in the wrong hole and gets bitten by something, he learns to not do that again. If the pup wonders off to far from the mother dog, they get picked up by the neck and carried back. If the time for feeding milk from mommy is over, she will growl at her offspring and they get the message. Simply to just focus on positive reinforcement for good behaviors and not also provide corrections for wrong behaviors, is counterproductive and doesn't work. No really aggressive dog has ever been transformed using only positive reinforcement techniques. They are good techniques but not suitable for every problem. They should be reserved for teaching tricks like come, sit, down, stay, etc. They have no place when dealing with a dog that knows no boundaries and shows aggression. Dogs don't reason, they react to the environment. Dogs don't think; they act on impulse.
- If positive training methods aren't working, then it's a problem with the trainer rather than the dog. Positive training isn't always easy, but if done correctly it's the most versatile and effective training method for any complex organism (not just dogs). It has extensive scientific backing, unlike traditional training methods which are only supported by tradition and anecdotal evidence.
Cesar's methods are very very dangerous for the general public to attempt. Honestly, they're pretty dangerous even when he attempts them. While he does do a few things right, the majority of his philosophies are based on outdated information that was inaccurate in the first place. He is unaware of the fallout associated with punishment, and he knows precious little about learning theory.
Who decided heeling was the correct way to walk a dog anyway? When's the last time you saw a dog neatly heeling beside it's alpha packmate? It's a completely unnatural behavior for dogs, and the whole idea of physically "leading the walk" is bogus. Mushers, skijorers, and canicross enthusiasts all lead their dogs from behind. If the dog goes where YOU want it to go, then you're leading, regardless of his physical position in relation to you.
Bear in mind that dog training, especially using the principles of learning theory, is both an art and an extraordinary skill. It's not reasonable to think anyone can just read a few books and go train their dog to perfection. You should work with a professional to sharpen your skills and help you get over any bumps you run into.
The Yahoo group Clicker Solutions is an excellent resource for positive training, I recommend you join and start reading the archives.
Note: For those claiming that Cesar's methods are necessary for really tough cases, there are many dog-friendly trainers who devote their careers to genuinely aggressive, last-ditch cases. Patricia McConnell is one such (and she's incredible), but there are many.
- If you have not been able to make the simple connection, Cesar Milan works with 'tough cases' where people have made mistakes. For general training, go with Victoria
