I am a dog trainer and I cannot figure out why people still use prong and choke collars( for those of you who think they are safe I encourage you to try harnesses that don't pull on the neck.), and support harsh based punishment. Clicker training and positive reinforcement is so much easier and better to use. I don't know, maybe I am just down because I see so many people treating their dogs the wrong way, maybe I need reinsurance that I am making a difference.
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Recommended Answer:Trust me, you are making a difference but you have to keep on making that difference, one person at a time, every day. I know, it's hard and it's discouraging, especially with the animal abuse that passes for dog training on some TV shows, and all the fans that horrible show has.
With clicker training, the learning is permanent. With the Old, Outdated Method Mr.Millan uses, dogs need frequent practice sessions of everything they have been trained or they must be occasionally completely re-trained. With clicker, you can really enjoy watching your dog learn new things, you KNOW it doesn't matter about all that silly dominance stuff because dogs do *NOT* try to dominate humans! So, you can hold your dog on your lap, let it go out the door first, and never, ever waste time analyzing your pet's behavior for ulterior motives...because there aren't any! Clicker trainers *AND* their dogs have more fun! Clicker trainers are Beloved and Respected Leaders. Old fashioned trainers are FEARED, and are only obeyed out of fear.
Pack theory was only a theory, never a fact. It was proved wrong a long time ago. Keep spreading the good news about positive reinforcement!
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- You are probably seeing them do it incorrectly. If you are an instructor, it is your job to show them how to do it right. (Do you work with one of those big chain stores? Independent boarding/training businesses still advocate the use of positive AND negative reinforcement.)
Negative reinforcement is NOT hurting or yelling at your dog. Negative reinforcement IS preventing bad behavior and 'punishing' by saying NO. Positive reinforcement does not always work.
If my dog jumps up and takes the turkey dinner off the counter, I'm not going to applaud her good behavior when she gives up the carcass. I am going to sternly tell her NO to keep her off the counter. I'm also not going to hit her or scream at her or use words with too many syllables for her to understand.
- Unfortunately I am not quite as articulate as some of my contacts, so I will star for them. But my imput is this, not all dogs are the same. Does your method work for some, yes, but not for all.
My workingline German Shepherds could care less about treats. One is a working K9. It is imperative that he recall when told and be under complete control at all times. Purely positive training just does not ensure this.
Have you ever worked with a high drive dog?
For the record, all of my dogs are trained with positive reinforcement. Then once the behavior is learned, corrections are used.
FYI - harnesses encourage pulling.
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I look forward to see more of your posts as a trainer. I always like to hear other opinions.
This is the first time you have even contributed to the dog section, and your first question is a highly controversial one....hmmm....
- Sorry but harnesses ENCOURAGE pulling, why? because that is what they were made to do. I will not use one just because you say so, or anyone else does. If I need one for pulling I will get one. Also frankly I am not impressed with haltis which yeah are for horses not dogs,and frankly can do a lot of damage when not properly used.
Check chains (the true name), and prongs are tools just like what you encourage, a tool is only as good as the handler using them.
Frankly I find 100% positive reinforcement to be a BIG joke, and will never do it. It does not work for every dog and I just don't think it works at all. If you don't correct the dog and just ignore the behavior the dog is not going to know what he/she is doing wrong.
I am not saying no positive reinforcement is good, it isn't, I am just saying 100% is just as bad. I would rather do a happy medium.
- No offense, but it's not up to you to decide the universal right and wrong ways to train a dog. Every dog can't be trained the same way.
Personally, I believe in any training tool and method that is humane and effective. I use prong collars on both my dogs and I would never use a harness as a training tool.
Prong/choke collars and positive reinforcement are not mutually exclusive. For most dogs, a combination of positive and negative reinforcement produces the best results.
- You are no more a dog trainer than I am a fairy princess.
Harness encourage pulling, clickers don't work for a lot of breeds, and prongs and choke chains are not harmful when used right. Its not old methods its correct methods. Dogs respond to correct around the neck. Real trainers use these methods. I am sorry, but you can't live in your land of make believe and sugar coated crap. Welcome to the real world hun. Positive reinforcement is just as useful as is a correct and both need to be implied for a reliable well trained dog.
- LIZZIE - apparently you don't own a very large or strong breed of dog.
The same methods don't work for everyone. I believe a combo is definitelt best. When I teach my dog something new I use treats and tons of positive renforcement, but I do use a prong collar for my dogs SAFETY. AND he doesn't pull anymore.
By the way some dogs WILL try to be more dominant than you if you leave them unchecked. That doesn't always mean they will try to physically dominate you, but they won't listen to whatever you say because you ask really nicely and wave a doggy treat in their face. Haven't you heard of owners having issues with their dogs because the dog will snap at their owner!? It happens a lot to ignorant owners and its not because they didn't give poochie enough treats.
The old method still exists because it works. PERIOD.
- Number 1; You claim you are dog trainning yet from what i heard Clicker trainning ONLY reward the GOOD behaviour. The dog DOESN'T learn anything negative. So how can a dog learn right from wrong?
Number 2; On my mutt i tried to use Harness, She breaks it within 5mintues of the walk. It just doesn't give great control and the buckels don't last with her strength.
Number 3; i tried nylon collar, and she breaks them within 15mintues of walks.
Number 4; I trited Halti's, and again she takes them off within mintues of the walk
Number 5; I tried the check chain and she happiest in that. I get the next size up, so it sit more on her shoulder rather then her throat. I keep it loose, She doesn't pull, doesn't break the collar and walks nicely beside me.
Believe me i will try the Halti again on my future dogs, but really i don't think check chain are as bad as they make out for larger dogs. I don't like them for small/toy breeds though. I really despise prone collars. It really what works best for the individual dog.
My dog is different to what you would consider a NORMAL dog. What normal for dogs, its very abnormal for my dog.
- I'm all for people using whatever method they want, as long as it works & as long as it doesn't harm the dog. Clicker training and positive reinforcement training is all fine and dandy, but I don't think anyone should use ONLY clicker and/or positive reinforcement training. People use whatever method they use because it works for them. What difference are you trying to make? To make people treat their dogs differently? If so, that's a fruitless effort. You're not gonna change that.
BTW, Harnesses aren't the best tool to train for walking either.
- That's called an opinion, and I don't care how much i'm encouraged to do so, I will keep using Chock and Prong Collars. For *you* the "all positive stuff" might work. I use full slip collars because I only use harnesses to encourage my dog to do what harenesses were made for, which is pulling! It's not harsh, its real. I think im making a difference using prongs and choke chains with my dog. I know my dog will not misbehave or pull on his leash. They are training tools, not tortourous devices used to kill the dog into shape. They give the dog a subtle message to listen, or something they don't like will happen. If you simply use treats, thr dog wont have as much reason to come. You have to reinforce the behavior both ways. I praise at first, and correct when he knows what to do, but doesn't do it right. Why? Because it works, and will keep working for me.
- I love how all dog trainers think that they have "the right method". We trained our giant schnauzer with a prong collar. As a trainer you should know that it is the same correciton a mother gives her pup and it is not as uncomfortable and scary as it looks (try putting it on your arm). It is a training tool and not something that should be left on unless you are in a training session but it can be invaluable. Positive reinforcement is essential but don't diss something you obviously don't understand. There are many methods of training out there that work well... not just yours.
- When used correctly, choke and prong collars are temporary measures to get the dog trained to other cues. They are only "choked" 3-4 (10 for stubborn block heads) times in their whole lives, and after a week, most dogs "get it".
People freak out because OUR necks are fragile. Dog necks have huge strong muscles. Like your thigh. You don't cut off their breath unless you're doing it wrong. If you are actually choking your dog breathless, quit. Use a different method. A dog can't work/learn when suffocating anyway.
I'm all for positive reinforcement for most things. But there comes a time and a place when you have to TELL your dog to mind, not beg/bribe him to obey.
- because prong and chock collars work if used right. And I will never walk my dog on a harness, they are so easy to slip out of that you might as well take the leash off of her and let her attack whatever she pleases.
Positive reward only works when there isn't something she wants more, like when company comes she couldn't care less about some treat.
When it really counts positive training doesn't work.
- This sooooo old.
Go train fluffy wif your wuv and treats, and when she gets hit by a car because you can't correct her for not coming, it's not my fault.
:)
BTW, My Aussie got to the cows today somehow, and there's a bull with them. He was herding the cows, and facing off the bull, they were charging at each other. A bull can KILL a dog, incase you didn't know. Love to see you use your clicker and doggy bag of treats to get a high drive, excited young dog back from that.
- Collars of any type are a tool. How they are used or abused is due to the training or lack of training of the handler.
Not every dog gives a hoot about clicker training or positive reinforcement.
- I'm impressed, I thought there were alot more positive only trainers here. What sort of dogs do you train? What sort of proofing have you done with your dogs? How many police dogs do you know who train with positive only clicker training? Using just a screw driver for all jobs, you are in real trouble when you have to hammer a nail; you limit the jobs you are available to do.
I use a combo methods, I use what works, I've used and instructed in the use of slip, prong, e-collars, martingales, clickers, NILF, harnesses, whatever is appropriate for the dog and the end goal. In many cases, when used properly, prong collars are the most humane and effective method of training, especially with big ol "ding dong" dogs that have no interest in treats. I don't like clickers specifically because I believe praise should not be limited to only formal set up training times and I don't like the idea of missing opportunities because I'm digging in a pocket or looking for the clicker. I associated a mouth "click" sound with praise. As far as harnesses, I only suggest those in conjunction with a martingale collar for rehabbing shy dogs. Harness do not allow complete control of the dog and encourages pulling. Harnesses and shirts do give shy dogs a sense of security and a Ruffwear harness used in conjunction with a martingale collar is difficult to escape when you have Houdini on the other end of the leash. As far as Haltis, these are the most dangerous and misused control devices on the market currently, many dogs have suffered cervical and inner ear injuries due to their use and misuse.
- It is my firm opinion that if you CAN use positive reinforcement to teach something, you should. I believe dogs learn much faster and have a better understanding of what is being asked of them if they spend more time being rewarded for doing something right than being punished for what they are doing wrong. It is up to the trainer to "set up" situation for the dog to succeed more than he fails.
HOWEVER, It is also my firm opinion that dogs are far more likely to do the "right thing" when the are taught that there are consequences for every action - both positive and negative consequences, depending on the action. For example: my dogs understand very clearly that when I call them they have two option 1) come to me and get rewarded every time 2) ignore me and get punished every time Because of this very clear understanding of consequences and consistency, my dogs make the "right choice" the vast majority of the time. If it were not for the negative reinforcement, it simply wouldn't work. The very reason my dogs are as happy as they are is because they can be trusted to play off leash, etc as a RESULT of their big bad scary e-collars - collars I almost never have to use because they clearly understand their options.
ALSO, it's very easy for people who have trained a couple of very biddable dogs to sit around and b*tch about how mean others are being to their dogs by using what THEY perceive as "mean" training methods. The reality is that not all dogs are made from the same cloth. Experienced handlers/trainers know this, and they know when certain training tools are called for.
- Because the base/bottom of the neck is the strongest part of a dogs neck and using a halter will only make pulling even worse. Cesar Millan is a VERY good trainer. I met him when he came to the Petco Groom shop where my mom works and I was able to meet him. He had 30 dogs and 15 are Pit Bulls which need even more training than most other breeds because of their power and ability to pull (if I can remember correctly) 30x(or 3x) their own weight. Prong collars and choke chains do NOT hurt the dog. They teach the dog NOT to pull and they are a perfectly fine way of training a dog. We use them on our Pitties and they work perfectly. I don't think a good owner would use a prong or choke chain on their dog if they knew it hurt the dog(which it does not). Our dogs don't pull anymore. I work with the Petco Trainer, who has more than 30 years experience, and she has me and my mom demonstrate proper walking techniques such as:
*walking the dog with the collar at the top of the neck behind the ears.
*Pulling UP when the dog starts to pull and not looking at the dog but looking straight ahead
*Making the dog walk right next to you
There's more but my answer is long enough. People have been training their dogs like this for years and not many people tend to disagree with these training methods. Cesar Millan is a good trainer and I know you must be too and there are MANY different ways of training that seem to hurt the dog when they don't. I would never use a Prong Collar or Choke Chain on my dogs if I knew it hurt them. They have never shown any signs of discomfort or pain and they are very well behaved. Everyone on this planet has different training methods. Some train their dogs very well, some train them very poorly, and some do not train their dogs at all.
- Ceasar Milan. He knows what he is doing and he is not wrong.
